Mainland Semi-Soft vs ButterSoft

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#1349790 22-Jul-2015 13:44

DrCheese:
Fred99: I'm reasonably confident that partial hydrogenation wasn't ever used for production of retail margarine in NZ - even in the '70s. For shortening / bakery ingredients - quite possible I expect.
AFAIK, the only evidence for health benefit of CLA is from some studies in diabetic rats. I call that as zero WRT human diet and disease - a starting point, perhaps.
No - I don't work in the dairy industry - just passing interest / curiosity, background in industrial chemistry.

This is not quite right either. Margarine was made using a partial hydrogenation process for 30 years from the early 1970s in NZ. The process now uses blending of higher melting point plant-based oils. This is from the horse's mouth --- a scientist who worked in the margarine industry in NZ for the last 43 years.

Best not to prefix anything with "AFAIK" if you are trying to make an authoritative statement. It sends mixed messages to the reader.

DrCheese.

The fact that a "margarine industry" requires "scientists" whilst butter requires only milk and rosy cheeked dairy maids is reason enough to stick with butter I would say!

DrCheese

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#1349791 22-Jul-2015 13:47

Geektastic:
DrCheese:
Fred99: I'm reasonably confident that partial hydrogenation wasn't ever used for production of retail margarine in NZ - even in the '70s. For shortening / bakery ingredients - quite possible I expect.
AFAIK, the only evidence for health benefit of CLA is from some studies in diabetic rats. I call that as zero WRT human diet and disease - a starting point, perhaps.
No - I don't work in the dairy industry - just passing interest / curiosity, background in industrial chemistry.

This is not quite right either. Margarine was made using a partial hydrogenation process for 30 years from the early 1970s in NZ. The process now uses blending of higher melting point plant-based oils. This is from the horse's mouth --- a scientist who worked in the margarine industry in NZ for the last 43 years.

Best not to prefix anything with "AFAIK" if you are trying to make an authoritative statement. It sends mixed messages to the reader.

DrCheese.

The fact that a "margarine industry" requires "scientists" whilst butter requires only milk and rosy cheeked dairy maids is reason enough to stick with butter I would say!

Indeed! Thankfully for me, the dairy industry also required food scientists. It's a great career, I must say, and not all about adding strange ingredients into food products. The spreadable butter is a good example of work carried out by scientists.

DrC

Fred99

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#1349842 22-Jul-2015 15:27

DrCheese:
Fred99: I'm reasonably confident that partial hydrogenation wasn't ever used for production of retail margarine in NZ - even in the '70s. For shortening / bakery ingredients - quite possible I expect.
AFAIK, the only evidence for health benefit of CLA is from some studies in diabetic rats. I call that as zero WRT human diet and disease - a starting point, perhaps.
No - I don't work in the dairy industry - just passing interest / curiosity, background in industrial chemistry.

This is not quite right either. Margarine was made using a partial hydrogenation process for 30 years from the early 1970s in NZ. The process now uses blending of higher melting point plant-based oils. This is from the horse's mouth --- a scientist who worked in the margarine industry in NZ for the last 43 years.

Best not to prefix anything with "AFAIK" if you are trying to make an authoritative statement. It sends mixed messages to the reader.

DrCheese.

That's incorrect. "AFAIK" is "as far as I know", which isn't intended to be read as an authoritative statement.
However I dispute that partial hydrogenation process was ever used in margarine production in NZ. This from NZ Heart Foundation :

The myth: margarine increases risk of heart disease by 53% according to a recent Harvard Medical School study
This claim relates to a study conducted in the United States in the 1980s. At that time, margarines in the US contained up to 29% trans fat. We now know that trans fat has an adverse effect on cholesterol levels, even more so than saturated fat. So what this study was really observing was the effect of trans fat on heart health, rather than the effect of margarine itself. Levels of trans fat in margarines in New Zealand have always been far lower than those in the United States, and changes in production methods mean most are under 2% trans fat. Margarine spreads carrying the Tick have been independently tested and contain less than 1% trans fat.

Process control, catalysts etc have changed/improved oil hydrogenation. That 1% trans fat level coincides with WHO guideline that TFA intake should be not more than 1% of total energy intake, in NZ the average diet does contain below that level.
I suggest that you may have misheard the presentation by the food scientist, and that he may have intended to say that partial hydrogenation was used in (other) products (ie hardened vegetable shortenings etc), or that trans fat levels were higher in NZ margarine back in those days because of the limitations of the (incomplete - thus "partial") hydrogenation process employed at the time. It's back to "AFAIK" I'm afraid - partial hydrogenation was never used to deliberately produce trans fat based margarine in NZ, as it was in the US.

DrCheese

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#1349863 22-Jul-2015 15:37

There are no dates on the claim made by the Heart Foundation, therefore you can't draw any conclusions. They might be talking about yesterday for all you know.

I'm correct about my statement from the margarine expert. I e-mailed him last night to confirm what I'd heard. Quite frankly, why would I believe you instead of an expert in the field?

DrC.

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#1350073 22-Jul-2015 21:27

DrCheese:
Geektastic:
DrCheese:
Fred99: I'm reasonably confident that partial hydrogenation wasn't ever used for production of retail margarine in NZ - even in the '70s. For shortening / bakery ingredients - quite possible I expect.
AFAIK, the only evidence for health benefit of CLA is from some studies in diabetic rats. I call that as zero WRT human diet and disease - a starting point, perhaps.
No - I don't work in the dairy industry - just passing interest / curiosity, background in industrial chemistry.

This is not quite right either. Margarine was made using a partial hydrogenation process for 30 years from the early 1970s in NZ. The process now uses blending of higher melting point plant-based oils. This is from the horse's mouth --- a scientist who worked in the margarine industry in NZ for the last 43 years.

Best not to prefix anything with "AFAIK" if you are trying to make an authoritative statement. It sends mixed messages to the reader.

DrCheese.

The fact that a "margarine industry" requires "scientists" whilst butter requires only milk and rosy cheeked dairy maids is reason enough to stick with butter I would say!

Indeed! Thankfully for me, the dairy industry also required food scientists. It's a great career, I must say, and not all about adding strange ingredients into food products. The spreadable butter is a good example of work carried out by scientists.

DrC

Cannabutter is something I would like to see from Fonterra...!

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#1350084 22-Jul-2015 21:36

What's that? Butter in a can?

DrC

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Geektastic

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#1350107 22-Jul-2015 22:26

DrCheese: What's that? Butter in a can?

DrC

Errrr...no...!

It's a product available in Canada that mixes the active ingredient of weed (which apparently is very fat soluble) with butter.

That should make breakfast the best meal of the day again!

Fred99

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#1350336 23-Jul-2015 12:23

DrCheese: There are no dates on the claim made by the Heart Foundation, therefore you can't draw any conclusions. They might be talking about yesterday for all you know.

I'm correct about my statement from the margarine expert. I e-mailed him last night to confirm what I'd heard. Quite frankly, why would I believe you instead of an expert in the field?

DrC.

The comment from the Heart Foundation doesn't really need a date - when they say "never". I'm sure that they're correct (that TFA in NZ produced margarine was never at the levels as was common in the USA ~29%), but also sure that TFA levels are on average much lower now than they were decades ago.

For anybody using margarine or other spreads, use one with the Heart Foundation tick (TFA must be <1% of total fats) or if buying a blend without the tick for some assumed "health benefit" reason, then be aware that if that product is being sold with some claim made as to the health benefit of the composition of oils etc, then TFA content must be listed on the nutritional information panel. The level of TFA in butter isn't stated, but is probably 4x higher than margarine with the Heart Foundation tick. That said, if butter (or other animal fat) was to be consumed and was the sole source of TFA in an typical diet, you'd need to consume perhaps 50-100g of pure fat per day to exceed WHO guidelines for TFA as % of daily energy intake. I couldn't eat that much butter (or margarine, or animal fat) - I'm pretty sure I'd puke.

The standard 5g serving size for butter (vs 10g for margarine) on nutritional information panels is a joke - even the standard "single serve" packs are 9g.

Given that CVD fell in NZ from a peak the '60s, correlating with overall reduction in (saturated) fat intake, conclusions were inevitably made, despite reduction in likely co-factors and medical intervention (incl. preventative). How anybody is supposed to make sense of what looks like an unholy mess of claims and counter claims is beyond me. At the time of that peak in CVD in NZ Margarine wasn't even available (until after 1974) - except with a prescription.

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