Should people like this be helped?

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Networkn
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#2081244 30-Aug-2018 10:21

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Way off topic but I support the mine re-entry. It is a crime scene and something may have been covered up (no pun intended, it's not funny).

It was a crime scene, its been dealt with. The families want the remains, at a cost of millions if not 10's of millions. I feel that is unreasonable. If someone gets hurt in there again.... A big and well designed plaque would have been my preference.

If someone gets hurt, JA and Andrew Little should face criminal charges. I'd feel that way if it was John and Bill, just for the record.

It's a tragedy, I feel for those families. Nothing positive to be gained that warrants what has already been spent let alone what the final bill will come to. Not to mention after this, they will make a memorial, which the tax payer will foot the bill for on top.

I don't have an issue with the memorial, nstead of the recovery.

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#2081246 30-Aug-2018 10:24

@Rikkitic @tdgeek @networkn stay on topic please.

@Rikkitic @networkn stop trolling each other.

allio

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#2081262 30-Aug-2018 10:49

I would love for my tax contributions to be used to get this woman home, and I agree with all the sentiment that we spend a lot of public money on rubbish that is far less worthy than this cause.

However - it is all about the precedent. If the government intervenes here, it has to commit to intervening in all similar cases in the future. You cannot pick and choose who to help based on arbitrary factors like who has the most public support, who tried to do the right thing with organising insurance, who is the sole breadwinner for a family of nine kids, etc. You just cannot get into the game of the government assigning value to people's lives. How do you explain to the next person in this situation that Abby Hartley's life was worth saving, but yours is not?

That means the calls for government assistance here are really a call for the government to establish a publicly-funded universal travel insurance system. ACC for travellers. Applicable to all, funded out of our tax dollars. I personally think the idea has merit, but let's be honest about what we're arguing for here.

People like Duncan Garner are on TV every morning castigating the government for not stepping in, but I have a feeling he wouldn't be arguing for more socialised insurance in NZ.

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#2081265 30-Aug-2018 10:51

allio:

I would love for my tax contributions to be used to get this woman home, and I agree with all the sentiment that we spend a lot of public money on rubbish that is far less worthy than this cause.

However - it is all about the precedent. If the government intervenes here, it has to commit to intervening in all similar cases in the future. You cannot pick and choose who to help based on arbitrary factors like who has the most public support, who tried to do the right thing with organising insurance, who is the sole breadwinner for a family of nine kids, etc. You just cannot get into the game of the government assigning value to people's lives. How do you explain to the next person in this situation that Abby Hartley's life was worth saving, but yours is not?

That means the calls for government assistance here are really a call for the government to establish a publicly-funded universal travel insurance system. ACC for travellers. Applicable to all, funded out of our tax dollars. I personally think the idea has merit, but let's be honest about what we're arguing for here.

People like Duncan Garner are on TV every morning castigating the government for not stepping in, but I have a feeling he wouldn't be arguing for more socialised insurance in NZ.

Well apart from the fact that setting up a Publically funded universal travel insurance system, I agree with your general sentiment that you can't help this case and then not help anyone else. Imagine the resources it would take to manage let alone fund something like this!

tdgeek

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#2081268 30-Aug-2018 10:55

allio:

I would love for my tax contributions to be used to get this woman home, and I agree with all the sentiment that we spend a lot of public money on rubbish that is far less worthy than this cause.

However - it is all about the precedent. If the government intervenes here, it has to commit to intervening in all similar cases in the future. You cannot pick and choose who to help based on arbitrary factors like who has the most public support, who tried to do the right thing with organising insurance, who is the sole breadwinner for a family of nine kids, etc. You just cannot get into the game of the government assigning value to people's lives. How do you explain to the next person in this situation that Abby Hartley's life was worth saving, but yours is not?

That means the calls for government assistance here are really a call for the government to establish a publicly-funded universal travel insurance system. ACC for travellers. Applicable to all, funded out of our tax dollars. I personally think the idea has merit, but let's be honest about what we're arguing for here.

People like Duncan Garner are on TV every morning castigating the government for not stepping in, but I have a feeling he wouldn't be arguing for more socialised insurance in NZ.

ACC was created to avoid lawsuits. It covers everyone. Travel doesn't cover everyone, and you can insure for travel. You can also insure your house and car, why not have an Insurance Tax for that too?

allio

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#2081308 30-Aug-2018 12:11

tdgeek:

ACC was created to avoid lawsuits. It covers everyone. Travel doesn't cover everyone, and you can insure for travel. You can also insure your house and car, why not have an Insurance Tax for that too?

I agree. If we were going to devote more public money in this area it should go to health and dental - not travel insurance.

epr

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#2081311 30-Aug-2018 12:14

Coil:

epr:
Coil:

No from me, Tired of paying for other peoples misfortune but at the same time covering myself in case I have an unfortunate event.
Maybe if we drew some lines to America and spectated how they handle medical things then people will buck up their ideas.

Yeah let's quickly mirror the worst health system in the western world and not care about anybody who gets sick, what a great solution. Or we could try being decent human beings.

It is more indicating that yes we do have an amazing system but there are still times where the person needs to take ownership themselves. That is my point.

Not too sure how you interpreted what I said as "lets just copy them", but thats pretty standard around here people trying to load questions to start arguments.

I slightly misread the intent of the post but I still cannot agree with the sentiment that we should look at the US and say how great our health system is why don't we look at Scandinavia and see what a truly great health system is and aspire to that. This is off topic from helping New Zealanders overseas though which is a thing I can support as long as it takes into account how they ended up in strife and doesn't become a we can rescue Kiwis overseas no matter how they got in trouble.

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DaveDog

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#2081315 30-Aug-2018 12:19

I'm really torn on this one and just don't know...

On one hand – This is what insurance is for and I really don't think the Government should be involved in rescuing Kiwi's from all over the place when it goes wrong.

On the other hand – It could be said that these people did all the right things... They had insurance, took practicable steps to cover their risk and it's all gone wrong. I have to wonder in a case like this if that means we should be helping them... We seem to rescue people from all over the place - from mountains, oceans and the like... Usually, we rescue tourists and the like... So why not you know?

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#2081326 30-Aug-2018 12:37

I dont know if it has been said before in this thread.

Is there any advantage for this person to be in a NZ hospital?
Would the risk of medevac and spending 9 hours in the air be more dangerous than staying in a bali hospital?

Does this cost the lady in trouble to be there?

Cheers

MikeAqua

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#2081333 30-Aug-2018 12:48

Coil:

I dont know if it has been said before in this thread.

Is there any advantage for this person to be in a NZ hospital?
Would the risk of medevac and spending 9 hours in the air be more dangerous than staying in a bali hospital?

Does this cost the lady in trouble to be there?

Cheers

It's costing thousands per week for her to be in a hospital in Indonesia.

IIRC the hospiatl bill is $90k. $160k to medi-vac her home. When I last looked at give-a-little there were close to $250k total donations.

Mike

Coil

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#2081336 30-Aug-2018 12:55

MikeAqua:

Coil:

I dont know if it has been said before in this thread.

Is there any advantage for this person to be in a NZ hospital?
Would the risk of medevac and spending 9 hours in the air be more dangerous than staying in a bali hospital?

Does this cost the lady in trouble to be there?

Cheers

It's costing thousands per week for her to be in a hospital in Indonesia.

IIRC the hospiatl bill is $90k. $160k to medi-vac her home. When I last looked at give-a-little there were close to $250k total donations.

Ah well, At least they got money via give a little and don't need govt assistance now.
Last night news boy ahd a good idea, he suggested the govt just pay the balance and setup an interest free loan for them.

Other than that, it will set a precedent.

eracode

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#2081342 30-Aug-2018 13:02

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Way off topic but I support the mine re-entry. It is a crime scene and something may have been covered up (no pun intended, it's not funny).

It was a crime scene, its been dealt with. The families want the remains, at a cost of millions if not 10's of millions. I feel that is unreasonable. If someone gets hurt in there again.... A big and well designed plaque would have been my preference.

Correct - and Pike River was a private-sector company - nothing to do with government - and any crimes committed have been dealt with (notwithstanding that many parts of that are debatable). I can't see any reason why taxpayers' money is being used here and I object to that.

Sorry - know this is still OT.

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networkn

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#2081343 30-Aug-2018 13:02

Coil:

I dont know if it has been said before in this thread.

Is there any advantage for this person to be in a NZ hospital?
Would the risk of medevac and spending 9 hours in the air be more dangerous than staying in a bali hospital?

Does this cost the lady in trouble to be there?

Cheers

I think it's a two fold issue. There is a massive outstanding bill at the hospital where she is, which will continue to grow. Secondly she needs/wants to be at home (presumably medical care here would be "free") and the cost to get her here is massive.

Coil

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#2081351 30-Aug-2018 13:20

networkn:

Coil:

I dont know if it has been said before in this thread.

Is there any advantage for this person to be in a NZ hospital?
Would the risk of medevac and spending 9 hours in the air be more dangerous than staying in a bali hospital?

Does this cost the lady in trouble to be there?

Cheers

I think it's a two fold issue. There is a massive outstanding bill at the hospital where she is, which will continue to grow. Secondly she needs/wants to be at home (presumably medical care here would be "free") and the cost to get her here is massive.

But her life is not in danger because she is in a bali hospital is it?

She just ended up in a bad situation and its going to be costly. Like if she was going to die because she was being kept alive under a shade tree in africa - sure I'd support it but if she is in Bali and has not got cover and is being looked after. Heck, that sucks hunny but you are still alive and you got a bill to pay to the people that saved your life. I call that fair.

If my car blew an engine half way to wherever and I couldn't afford a tow truck, what do I do? Call JA to send a tow truck and a new car on the back of it, Or do I take it on the bloody chin and use my credit card for a tow truck and then repair my car.

networkn

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#2081357 30-Aug-2018 13:30

Coil:

But her life is not in danger because she is in a bali hospital is it?

She just ended up in a bad situation and its going to be costly. Like if she was going to die because she was being kept alive under a shade tree in africa - sure I'd support it but if she is in Bali and has not got cover and is being looked after. Heck, that sucks hunny but you are still alive and you got a bill to pay to the people that saved your life. I call that fair.

If my car blew an engine half way to wherever and I couldn't afford a tow truck, what do I do? Call JA to send a tow truck and a new car on the back of it, Or do I take it on the bloody chin and use my credit card for a tow truck and then repair my car.

There is a big difference between a car repair and a tow truck fee, vs the $160K bill she is facing.

They already remortgaged their house. They have exhausted all their own financial resources. I don't think it's a case of them not being willing to sacrifice whatever they need to.

It's unfortunate, but it's right the Government plays no part in this. Thankfully through the kindness of others, they have raised about $235K to this point. Plenty to get her home I think.

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