Briscoes - CGA. They say no

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#2247449 29-May-2019 07:06

cshaun:

So $60 vs $125, but you have no toaster when it randomly breaks and you need to dispose of and buy a new one? I think I'd go the $125 toaster. That's a lot of hassle, time, petrol etc saved. Well any product could have a defect and fail at any time or even DOA. But put in a little quality control, possibly slightly better design and not much reason it doesn't last much longer. Maybe 90% make 5 years, so offer 2 or 3 year warranty and charge like $12.

Why would CGA be 12 years if warranty is 8? CGA is just what one would reasonably expect (subjective). CGA may still just be 8 years surely?

If you worry about time and cost and energy of a product fails, thats a worrying life.

A $10 toaster doesn't have quality control. Its in the mass cheap production market

CGA is based upon reasonable, a poster here years ago had an old but very expensive plasma fail well after warranty, maybe 6 years. It was dealt with. If it was a cheap and nasty TV with 12 month warranty and failed after 2 years, forget it. If a manufacturers offers an 8 year warranty, and the high price to go along with it, the quality and price might well determine a CGA period greater than the warranty

But if you feel that all products should last forever, figuratively, well, that's not how our world works. Not everyone can afford Rolls Royce products

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#2247450 29-May-2019 07:08

andrewNZ: I'm not defending anyone's actions here, but I think it is important to remember that retailers get a constant stream of bogus warranty claims. Briscoes would get minimum 1 per store per day. And the claimants are always adamant they should be getting a refund for crazy things.

There is everything from people trying to return (unused) razors full of stubble. People claiming the oil is leaking out of the fry pan through the metal, and "all metal is porous". getting 5 minutes of ranting about products actually purchased from another retailer. And even the person who was loudly quoting the CGA because he sat on his sunglasses and they broke.

People are so s#!t, and there is a chance your claim got caught up in the white noise of other bogus claims.

ETA: I do not work for Briscoes group, but clearly I know someone that does.

And those that expect products to last a LOOOONG time, always, and expect the CGA to cater for them

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#2247725 29-May-2019 14:04

tdgeek:

If you worry about time and cost and energy of a product fails, thats a worrying life.

A $10 toaster doesn't have quality control. Its in the mass cheap production market

CGA is based upon reasonable, a poster here years ago had an old but very expensive plasma fail well after warranty, maybe 6 years. It was dealt with. If it was a cheap and nasty TV with 12 month warranty and failed after 2 years, forget it. If a manufacturers offers an 8 year warranty, and the high price to go along with it, the quality and price might well determine a CGA period greater than the warranty

But if you feel that all products should last forever, figuratively, well, that's not how our world works. Not everyone can afford Rolls Royce products

You mean to tell me you don't care if your TV, toaster, fridge, washing machine or computer die? You don't take that into consideration at all when making a purchase? I think everyone does at some level.

Not to mention all the rubbish you're sending to landfill. It makes far more sense in most cases to make a single purchase that is going to last.

Of course there will be some level of quality control on a $10 toaster. They might turn each one on, or maybe x number per batch or something like that. Cost of some quality control is better than retailers having to deal with returns etc. Will be some equilibrium to reach lowest overall cost.

You don't always need the "Rolls Royce". E.g. drills, I use one a few times a year. You can buy cheap ones that are not for trade. Though if you're in trade and using it every day it wouldn't last very long at all. This is communicated fairly well to the customer and completely fair. It's often not the case with other products.

With regard to TVs. Well it's known plasmas last for AGES, often 10+ years. Plus a glass front making them a bit more durable to accidental damage. LCD's too should last quite a long time. OLED is new and known to have issues. Even though OLED is more expensive I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a plasma or LCD. You're paying a premium for image quality not life expectancy. Warranties are typically 1 year, sometimes 2 to my knowledge (more or less irrelevant). I wouldn't expect the cheap TV you mentioned to last quite as long as the expensive one, but not 1/3 of time. As with most things you might pay 3x the cost of an item only to have it 30% better.

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#2247729 29-May-2019 14:15

cshaun:

You mean to tell me you don't care if your TV, toaster, fridge, washing machine or computer die? You don't take that into consideration at all when making a purchase? I think everyone does at some level.

Not to mention all the rubbish you're sending to landfill. It makes far more sense in most cases to make a single purchase that is going to last.

Of course there will be some level of quality control on a $10 toaster. They might turn each one on, or maybe x number per batch or something like that. Cost of some quality control is better than retailers having to deal with returns etc. Will be some equilibrium to reach lowest overall cost.

You don't always need the "Rolls Royce". E.g. drills, I use one a few times a year. You can buy cheap ones that are not for trade. Though if you're in trade and using it every day it wouldn't last very long at all. This is communicated fairly well to the customer and completely fair. It's often not the case with other products.

With regard to TVs. Well it's known plasmas last for AGES, often 10+ years. Plus a glass front making them a bit more durable to accidental damage. LCD's too should last quite a long time. OLED is new and known to have issues. Even though OLED is more expensive I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a plasma or LCD. You're paying a premium for image quality not life expectancy. Warranties are typically 1 year, sometimes 2 to my knowledge (more or less irrelevant). I wouldn't expect the cheap TV you mentioned to last quite as long as the expensive one, but not 1/3 of time. As with most things you might pay 3x the cost of an item only to have it 30% better.

LOL If I buy a Rolls Royce or a $10 toaster I am aware of the right expectation

Quality Control - They might turn each one on (doubt it VERY much) , or maybe x number per batch or something like that. Hardly what I'd call quality control

make a single purchase that is going to last.- Better shut down The Warehouse and Bunnings then?

Rolls make goods to a certain standard, that's part of their DNA. Cheap goods are cheap goods, returns are just a cost of doing business, just as stationery is.

There is a market for all standards of goods

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#2247734 29-May-2019 14:36

tdgeek:

LOL If I buy a Rolls Royce or a $10 toaster I am aware of the right expectation

Quality Control - They might turn each one on (doubt it VERY much) , or maybe x number per batch or something like that. Hardly what I'd call quality control

make a single purchase that is going to last.- Better shut down The Warehouse and Bunnings then?

Rolls make goods to a certain standard, that's part of their DNA. Cheap goods are cheap goods, returns are just a cost of doing business, just as stationery is.

There is a market for all standards of goods

Quality control falls on a spectrum. And checking x number per batch just depends on the situation. Maybe it's automated, and you're really just checking something hasn't got misaligned etc. What QC you do depends on where you're likely to see faults, and the severity or danger of them.

A single purchase that's going to last, depends on your usage. As I mentioned a cheap drill is going to last me just fine, as I only use it occasionally. I have a decent chefs knife because I use it almost everyday - and still expect it to last a lifetime with proper care. Right tool for the right job.

So no you don't need to shutdown The Warehouse.

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#2247743 29-May-2019 14:48

cshaun:

tdgeek:

LOL If I buy a Rolls Royce or a $10 toaster I am aware of the right expectation

Quality Control - They might turn each one on (doubt it VERY much) , or maybe x number per batch or something like that. Hardly what I'd call quality control

make a single purchase that is going to last.- Better shut down The Warehouse and Bunnings then?

Rolls make goods to a certain standard, that's part of their DNA. Cheap goods are cheap goods, returns are just a cost of doing business, just as stationery is.

There is a market for all standards of goods

Quality control falls on a spectrum. And checking x number per batch just depends on the situation. Maybe it's automated, and you're really just checking something hasn't got misaligned etc. What QC you do depends on where you're likely to see faults, and the severity or danger of them.

A single purchase that's going to last, depends on your usage. As I mentioned a cheap drill is going to last me just fine, as I only use it occasionally. I have a decent chefs knife because I use it almost everyday - and still expect it to last a lifetime with proper care. Right tool for the right job.

So no you don't need to shutdown The Warehouse.

Your cheap drill isn't cheap now, as you want good quality control. Same as the $10 toaster. They are now mid priced drills and toasters because the quality control, shows many defects, so they now use better materials and so on. Warehouse has few sales as people go to a place that sells the same gear but its got a better name than the Warehouse. There is a market for cheap stuff, and to be cheap its made cheap. The toaster they made a few. Did a production run, sampled a few. all seems ok. No more QC as we already done it, and we want the price to be $10. Remember deduct GST and shipping, its now a $7 toaster. Deduct two margins (manufacturer and Warehouse) and its a toaster that cost $3-50 to make.

YGWYPF

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#2247747 29-May-2019 14:53

What is reasonable is very subjective, but I would consider a one-year warranty on a $10 toaster pretty reasonable. Most other posters here seem to think about the same. To stay in business, a manufacturer has to balance various things, like how much to invest in the quality of a product vs how much warranty failures are likely to cost. The warranty period is also part of that calculation.

It is true that cheap rubbish with a high failure rate is a false economy and bad for the environment, but this is a fault of our economic system, not the producer of cheap rubbish who is trying to survive under it. Unbridled free market capitalism results in lots of inequities and lots of waste. It may result in the end of life as we know it. But don't blame a cheap rubbish producer for that. They are just trying to make a buck in a flawed system.

Planned obsolescence and modular design are major faults of our system. Things are made to break, and things that break are made to be non-repairable. I have fixed many toasters in my time. These were the good, old-fashioned kind, the kind that don't pop up, or pop up when an expanding metal lever reaches a certain temperature and releases a catch. No electronics crap or flashing leds to dazzle those who move their lips when they read. Just simple, honest devices that do what is necessary. Toasters like this are easy to fix. About the only thing that can break is the heating element and it is usually not hard to twist the broken bits together with a pair of pliers so they make a connection again.

The toaster that finally defeated me was a modern Sunbeam with microprocessor chips for control. Who the devil puts microprocessors in a toaster? They are only there to act as new points of failure, just like our worthless washing machine. Who needs to tell their fridge to make ice as they are driving home? Who needs to talk to their TV or heat pump? The Internet of things is a big, fat, consumer hoax perpetrated by hamster wheel economics that have to keep spinning ever faster by generating endless increasing demand for pointless things no-one needs.

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#2247751 29-May-2019 15:04

Its ironic that the people that made the old washing machines and toasters made them to last, with technology and knowledge that has been well and truly eclipsed by today's manufacturers and processes. We could make these products last far longer, easily. A 747 was rated for 50 years I believe. Think I heard that on Air Crash one night. But today we need repeat sales, thats easy to "manufacture"

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#2247776 29-May-2019 15:31

tdgeek:

Its ironic that the people that made the old washing machines and toasters made them to last, with technology and knowledge that has been well and truly eclipsed by today's manufacturers and processes. We could make these products last far longer, easily. A 747 was rated for 50 years I believe. Think I heard that on Air Crash one night. But today we need repeat sales, thats easy to "manufacture"

The thing is that a lot of the expensive appliances, like the classic designed dualit toasters, are made the same way they have been made for decades, with perhaps a few new enhancements demanded by consumers to keep them current. The problem is when technology gets integrated into them, which over time makes them redundant as technology gets updates. Also the more tech that goes into them, the more there is to fail. Additional motors, sensors, lights, circuit boards with capacitors, are all prone to failure. Whereas the old toasters were largely all mechanical with few moving parts.

cshaun

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#2247779 29-May-2019 15:36

tdgeek:

Your cheap drill isn't cheap now, as you want good quality control. Same as the $10 toaster. They are now mid priced drills and toasters because the quality control, shows many defects, so they now use better materials and so on. Warehouse has few sales as people go to a place that sells the same gear but its got a better name than the Warehouse. There is a market for cheap stuff, and to be cheap its made cheap. The toaster they made a few. Did a production run, sampled a few. all seems ok. No more QC as we already done it, and we want the price to be $10. Remember deduct GST and shipping, its now a $7 toaster. Deduct two margins (manufacturer and Warehouse) and its a toaster that cost $3-50 to make.

YGWYPF

I don't want good quality control. I want what makes sense for the given price point and indicated quality of the item. I'm aware that rule of thumb production costs are approx 25% of retail. But I think you're over estimating the cost to build a cheap yet not utter garbage product. Sample size of 1 for the toaster. Wouldn't be surprised at all if most make it to 5 years. As has been mentioned most toasters today seem to be very similar internally - all cheap, just the outside that looks fancy.

YGWYPF - often not true. Now wouldn't it make things so easy if it was the case. You often get fooled into thinking it's better via marketing, or just charge more as it indicates it's better right. Retail margins can vary dramatically. It can be easier just buying the cheapest junk, that way you do actually know what you are paying for and are not getting ripped off.

Rikkitic:

What is reasonable is very subjective, but I would consider a one-year warranty on a $10 toaster pretty reasonable. Most other posters here seem to think about the same. To stay in business, a manufacturer has to balance various things, like how much to invest in the quality of a product vs how much warranty failures are likely to cost. The warranty period is also part of that calculation.

It is true that cheap rubbish with a high failure rate is a false economy and bad for the environment, but this is a fault of our economic system, not the producer of cheap rubbish who is trying to survive under it. Unbridled free market capitalism results in lots of inequities and lots of waste. It may result in the end of life as we know it. But don't blame a cheap rubbish producer for that. They are just trying to make a buck in a flawed system.

Planned obsolescence and modular design are major faults of our system. Things are made to break, and things that break are made to be non-repairable. I have fixed many toasters in my time. These were the good, old-fashioned kind, the kind that don't pop up, or pop up when an expanding metal lever reaches a certain temperature and releases a catch. No electronics crap or flashing leds to dazzle those who move their lips when they read. Just simple, honest devices that do what is necessary. Toasters like this are easy to fix. About the only thing that can break is the heating element and it is usually not hard to twist the broken bits together with a pair of pliers so they make a connection again.

The toaster that finally defeated me was a modern Sunbeam with microprocessor chips for control. Who the devil puts microprocessors in a toaster? They are only there to act as new points of failure, just like our worthless washing machine. Who needs to tell their fridge to make ice as they are driving home? Who needs to talk to their TV or heat pump? The Internet of things is a big, fat, consumer hoax perpetrated by hamster wheel economics that have to keep spinning ever faster by generating endless increasing demand for pointless things no-one needs.

I agree a one year warranty is fair. It's usually the minimum, and a cheap product is likely to have the minimum. CGA on that item though a different and subjective issue. I would think that if the manufacturer is indicating at least 1 year guaranteed, you should probably expect it to last a bit longer than that. Not just 1 month longer. So maybe CGA would be 2 years (debatable).

I agree with most of what you said. Though I do have lovely conversations with my heat pump. It's often much nicer than looking for the remote.

cshaun

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#2247781 29-May-2019 15:40

mattwnz:

The thing is that a lot of the expensive appliances, like the classic designed dualit toasters, are made the same way they have been made for decades, with perhaps a few new enhancements demanded by consumers to keep them current. The problem is when technology gets integrated into them, which over time makes them redundant as technology gets updates. Also the more tech that goes into them, the more there is to fail. Additional motors, sensors, lights, circuit boards with capacitors, are all prone to failure. Whereas the old toasters were largely all mechanical with few moving parts.

Could possibly reason that the cheaper no frills toaster might actually last longer than the more expensive ones... Simpler and less to go wrong, and it's a pretty simple device.

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#2247788 29-May-2019 15:51

cshaun:

I agree a one year warranty is fair. It's usually the minimum, and a cheap product is likely to have the minimum. CGA on that item though a different and subjective issue. I would think that if the manufacturer is indicating at least 1 year guaranteed, you should probably expect it to last a bit longer than that. Not just 1 month longer. So maybe CGA would be 2 years (debatable).

I don;t think we want the CGA to be prescribing definite time periods products should last for. If it does, then we open ourselves up to having to then buy extended warranties, and products will could intentionally be made to only last a certain amount of time. This is even more possible now with technology, as some products can have built in obsolesce. That is one of the downside with integrating some technology , such as products that need to connect to the manufacturers own servers to operate properly, into products. I recently had a weather station stop working for this same reason, only about 3 years old, and nothing else wrong with i, except it couldn't remotely connect to the manufacturers server as they had shut it down for older products.

Also if I was buying a $700 toaster, you would expect it to last a good 10 years IMO. I do have a dulait one that is a good 25 years old that would probably cost that in todays money. The only things that have failed are elements, which I guess are consumables. Th p roblem is that the price of elements in NZ for it are the price of a whole new medium priced toaster, so I buy them from overseas.

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#2248309 30-May-2019 10:37

With some 'loose' maths this infographic could imply that retailers have a 46% chance of getting away with trying to pull the wool over a customer's eyes.

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

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#2248940 31-May-2019 09:41

But on a more serious note....

We had a solar water heating system installed 7-8 years ago, and the warranty has run out.

But before that happened, one of the controllers went haywire and had to be replaced.

Now the replacement controller is playing up.

Would the CGA cover the replacement part that is less than 2 years old?

Delete cookies?! Are you insane?!

tdgeek

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#2248946 31-May-2019 09:52

kiwifidget:

But on a more serious note....

We had a solar water heating system installed 7-8 years ago, and the warranty has run out.

But before that happened, one of the controllers went haywire and had to be replaced.

Now the replacement controller is playing up.

Would the CGA cover the replacement part that is less than 2 years old?

If you have a product that is say 20 months old and 24 month warranty, and it gets replaced, you do not have another 24 month warranty. Same applies if it was a CGA claim of say 36 months old and 24 month warranty that CGA allowed.

Hope that helps

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