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Eva888
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  #2615611 3-Dec-2020 14:27
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When I was a kid, an old stooped Chinese man would walk past the school every day. We would all rush to the fence and chant Ching Chong Chinaman. There was no malice, it just seemed the right thing to sing.
I think about that man many times now and how he must have felt and feel so sad about him. He never ever raised his head when we sang.

When Covid began, one of my fellow volunteers who is an Asian very gentle, born here and never been to China, came in one day very shaken. She had been verbally abused and told to go back to China. I talked to her about my old Chinaman chant and how bad I felt. She said to me that she experiences being called names at least once a week and so do her kids and how sometimes she feels very afraid.

I know my own parents who weren’t visibly different from Kiwis but couldn't speak English got a lot of flak and called bloody foreigners. I remember them discussing the words and puzzling over what exactly bloody meant.

Yes, forgiveness is important and even more so...walking in another’s shoes.








MikeB4
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  #2615629 3-Dec-2020 14:48
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We should never allow racism or any prejudice go unchallenged. For children chant what you say you did to a Chinese gentleman shows you were taught that by people who did not challenge it and perpetuated it. 





Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.


mattwnz
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  #2615632 3-Dec-2020 14:57
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If you watch some of the old TV interviews from the 70's and 80's some of the things said would not be considered PC,  or even shocking but were the norm back then. SO should they be dredged up again? The things is that society has changed, and what was acceptable back then is not acceptable today. I remember as a kid, grandmas used to knit gollywog dolls for children. We used to produce  eskimo sweets up until very recently etc. 




networkn

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  #2615641 3-Dec-2020 15:08
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mattwnz:

 

If you watch some of the old TV interviews from the 70's and 80's some of the things said would not be considered PC,  or even shocking but were the norm back then. SO should they be dredged up again? The things is that society has changed, and what was acceptable back then is not acceptable today. I remember as a kid, grandmas used to knit gollywog dolls for children. We used to produce  eskimo sweets up until very recently etc. 

 

 

People are quick to say things weren't acceptable then, but they certainly were *more* accepted then. Over time we have got less and less tolerant of those views, and there were certainly people calling for less tolerance quicker than others.

 

Words said, actions done, should be viewed through the lens of the time they were said and done, and what was not acceptable in 2011 in NZ was *perhaps* far more acceptable in other countries until later.

 

For the record, because I am certain some will be quick to climb down my throat about this, I am *not* condoning what was said by Matera in any way, I am generally speaking.


MikeB4
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  #2615649 3-Dec-2020 15:23
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It was not acceptable in 2011.





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elpenguino
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  #2615652 3-Dec-2020 15:24
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networkn:

 

mattwnz:

 

If you watch some of the old TV interviews from the 70's and 80's some of the things said would not be considered PC,  or even shocking but were the norm back then. SO should they be dredged up again? The things is that society has changed, and what was acceptable back then is not acceptable today. I remember as a kid, grandmas used to knit gollywog dolls for children. We used to produce  eskimo sweets up until very recently etc. 

 

 

People are quick to say things weren't acceptable then, but they certainly were *more* accepted then. Over time we have got less and less tolerant of those views, and there were certainly people calling for less tolerance quicker than others.

 

Words said, actions done, should be viewed through the lens of the time they were said and done, and what was not acceptable in 2011 in NZ was *perhaps* far more acceptable in other countries until later.

 

For the record, because I am certain some will be quick to climb down my throat about this, I am *not* condoning what was said by Matera in any way, I am generally speaking.

 

 

There's a lot of sentiment along those lines in this thread. Yes, if we never forgive and forget our world becomes bitter.

 

But the thing about his earlier statements is that they reflect his inner beliefs. He didn't spill someone's drink or step on a toe. He said something that showed his inner beliefs and they weren't pretty.

 

It's easy to say sorry but carry on believing while keeping those beliefs to yourself.

 

As someone in the public eye, such as a national team captain, he might need to go further than mere words, to show he isn't like that anymore. Otherwise, the team and nation have a smudge against them.

 

And if he's truly sorry, those actions won't be hard to carry out.

 

There is no rule about how long you are responsible for your actions. There's no statute of limitations for bigots. If he's really sorry then go help at a soup kitchen for street kids or something.

 

 

 

Re your earlier anecdote about your childhood, I think you're missing the point about racism. It's not name calling. Ask your childhood friends how many times they get pulled over by the cops and compare that to yourself. Look at their educational outcomes and compare that to your family. Ask them what questions they get asked when they apply for a flat or a job.





Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21


 
 
 

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networkn

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  #2615664 3-Dec-2020 15:48
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elpenguino:

 

 

 

As someone in the public eye, such as a national team captain, he might need to go further than mere words, to show he isn't like that anymore. Otherwise, the team and nation have a smudge against them.

 

 

A smudge against them? Really? I don't think so. I can not once recall thinking to myself, nor do I expect any time in the future, to consider the AB's playing Argentina (or any other Rugby team) a bad idea because of the actions of a player (Captain or otherwise) 9 years earlier. I am not going to switch off my TV, or probably even give a seconds thought to it.  I don't refuse to watch SA play the AB's despite the fact I know that SA has a real racism problem to this day. I won't refuse to go to Argentina to visit either.

 

I admit there may be a tiny number of people who may boycott the Argentina Rugby team, burn their Jersey in protest as a result of Materas actions. They will give themselves a woke pat on the back and congratulate themselves on their protest, but in the grand scheme of things, most people do not paint an entire team or country with the same brush as a single person, and rightly so, this is how "isms" get a hold in society.

 

As to your other point, about it not being about what is said, and invalidating my experience, I think I was pretty clear about the limits of my experience, but it was an example related to the offense caused by Matera. It's what he said, so I used an example of what was said to me. If he had done those things he said, then he would almost certainly be in prison, and rightly so.

 

Despite inferences to the contrary, I am well aware of racism and it's effects on some people and of the various ways they manifest themselves, I was using drawing similarities.

 

To my mind, the biggest change comes from what is no longer said. If people keep their racist opinions to themselves, then they are not spouting them for their kids to hear, they are no longer legitimising it. You can't stop what people think, but you can't stop people saying it, and the less people saying it, the less people there will be holding those views over time.

 

 

 

 


frankv
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  #2615670 3-Dec-2020 16:02
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networkn:

 

 they are not spouting them for their kids to hear, they are no longer legitimising it.

 

 

I don't think this is true... you can stop people saying things in public, but there's not a lot you can do to prevent them saying it in their homes or their cars when only their family is present. Especially given that spouses are likely to have similar views.

 

 


networkn

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  #2615672 3-Dec-2020 16:03
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frankv:

 

networkn:

 

 they are not spouting them for their kids to hear, they are no longer legitimising it.

 

 

I don't think this is true... you can stop people saying things in public, but there's not a lot you can do to prevent them saying it in their homes or their cars when only their family is present. Especially given that spouses are likely to have similar views.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, but even not hearing it publically, is still going to end up having benefits.

 

 


Handle9
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  #2615675 3-Dec-2020 16:09
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networkn:

Handle9:


 




Have you got a reference for this being known previously?


The terms "resurfaced" and "prior controvesy" in multiple articles.


 



Resurfaced I have read. I haven't seen anything referencing prior controversy. I don't think there was one.

tdgeek
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  #2615861 3-Dec-2020 19:40
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A couple of good articles

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/123591991/pumas-backflip-on-bans-for-captain-pablo-matera-guido-petti-and-santiago-socino-but-theres-a-catch

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/123586831/pumas-greats-agustin-creevy-and-agustin-pichot-leap-to-defence-of-suspended-trio

 

Note also that has the Puma's given more of a tribute to Diego Maradona, this would likely not be news. That, and that we don't see any resurrected past 9 years of similar tweets/social media from these three. Its an unfortunate saga that has made the news, and its good to be reminded of proper attitudes, but the source of this news is from another reason.


 
 
 

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gzt

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  #2615896 3-Dec-2020 21:16
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In summary, all three players are reinstated. This was always going to happen, the only surprise is it happened so fast.

It's unclear if the players will be undertaking some anti-racism outreach work for the union or it's a free pass.

Looks like the administration board might address that in a few days.

Technofreak
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  #2615897 3-Dec-2020 21:25
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At last some common sense reigns.




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MikeB4
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  #2616119 4-Dec-2020 09:19
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The timing of the reinstatement following results last weekend the Pumas have a chance if not a very outside chance to win the competition is some what convenient and suspicious. Rugby world wide has a history of turning a blind eye to racial issues for the good of the game and because is only a sport.

 

Edit; this concludes my involvement here.





Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.


olivernz
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  #2616123 4-Dec-2020 09:40
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My problem is more with those that spew racist or harmful rhetoric on an ongoing basis without having any consequences. Yeah Trump I am looking at you & your cronies and followers the world over! We have them here too. 


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