How long should what you say have consequences for?

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networkn

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#280189 1-Dec-2020 17:57

I see today that Argentina Rugby Captain Pablo Matera has lost his captaincy over racist comments made 9 years ago. It's not the first time I have seen things like this happen, and not the first time I have wondered about starting this thread.

9 Years is a long time. It seems reasonable he probably doesn't hold those views any longer. Furthermore, he has unreservedly apologised, admitted it was wrong, publically.

Whilst I can understand feeling like he should be punished, I am not sure it solves anything.

I have over my 40 odd years, held views I no longer hold, based on my experiences, my environment and influences at the time, that I no longer hold. I don't think they were nice, or good values to hold, but I didn't know that back then. I would like to think that if I was doing good work, contributing to society, no longer held those views (or expressed them at the least) that I should be able to continue my good work. I sort of feel there should be a statute of limitations on the stupid or harmful things people say, as I think it's entirely possible for people to hold a view and have their minds entirely changed by changes in societal views, influences, experience etc..

I see it a bit in political circles.

In my opinion, people are quick to judge and condemn others, rush to be offended and I often feel that if someone shows geniune remorse and is otherwise contributing, hasn't had an ongoing history of harm in this manner, they should be condemned for holding those views back then, and we should all move on. If he said those things recently, today, or 3 months ago, then I would think sacking him could be a way to show condemnation, but this feels out of whack with any benefit that would occur. The potential good of him to teach others by providing an ongoing example, has greater value than sacking him for a view he states he no longer holds or supports.

I am not in this case, or any other, suggesting his comments were acceptable.

A number of people know me as a big Rugby fan. This is not a me making excuses for a Rugby player, I see it in all walks of life, today was just the example at hand.

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Max
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#2614261 1-Dec-2020 18:01

You can and should be criticized until you renounce what you originally said and have both learned and denounce said opinion/comment.

However I do not believe in witch hunting in the past and if Pablo Matera was asked if he still holds those values and he says no and states why then he should not have lost his captain role.

You can still be criticized for saying it in the past but if you don't hold those values anymore then I'd consider the hands washed.

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neb

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#2614283 1-Dec-2020 18:05

Exactly six weeks. After that all comments become null and void, and your wife cannot dig them up any more and use them against you.

gzt

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#2614291 1-Dec-2020 18:27

networkn: I see today that Argentina Rugby Captain Pablo Matera has lost his captaincy over racist comments made 9 years ago. It's not the first time I have seen things like this happen, and not the first time I have wondered about starting this thread. 9 Years is a long time. It seems reasonable he probably doesn't hold those views any longer. Furthermore, he has unreservedly apologised, admitted it was wrong, publically.

These were tweets rather than speech. Two other players were suspended at the same time as Matera. I do know one tweet referred to "running over blacks". This is clearly at the very nasty end.

I'd say the loss of the captaincy is just a consequence of the suspension for now. Imo it's also justified as loss of confidence in Matera's leadership on the pitch.

The administration now has to decide what process to apply here and how to move forward.

SirHumphreyAppleby

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#2614313 1-Dec-2020 18:50

People are entitled to their opinions and they are entitled to change them. They are also entitled to re-evaluate their views against prevailing beliefs in society and maintain their beliefs in spite of them.

I don't respect people who stubbornly stand by their opinions when they are proven wrong, nor do I respect people who apologise for having beliefs in the first place, especially if they are forced to do so.

Years down the track context is often forgotten or blatantly ignored by those who wish to make an issue of it. Unless the comments at the time amounted to a crime (for which I believe the threshold should be exceedingly high), then let bygones be bygones.

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#2614314 1-Dec-2020 18:51

There can be no fixed one size fits all rule for this. Some things are so grievous they can never be forgiven. Some things that cause great pain require protracted periods of remorse, but can eventually lead to redemption if paid for with sufficient anguish and insight. Youthful foolishness should not have to mean lifelong purgatory, but neither should it be dismissed lightly, as that will only embolden other youthful fools.

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#2614352 1-Dec-2020 21:02

networkn:

I see today that Argentina Rugby Captain Pablo Matera has lost his captaincy over racist comments made 9 years ago. It's not the first time I have seen things like this happen, and not the first time I have wondered about starting this thread.

I agree with everything you posted but thought this part showed how ludicrous the situation is. He is getting the sack for something that occurred well before he was even appointed Captain. If this was so important should he have ever been appointed to the role?

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MikeB4

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#2614353 1-Dec-2020 21:09

There should be zero tolerance for racism. What has happened to him is appropriate.

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networkn

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#2614387 1-Dec-2020 21:54

MikeB4:

There should be zero tolerance for racism. What has happened to him is appropriate.

To what end does his punishment serve? It was 9 years ago, he is already sorry, he no longer holds these views and he can do far more with what he has learned in the position he holds, setting an example to others that big tough guys can change their views and admit their mistakes and that racism isn't an accepted view. Punishment is (should be) about rehabilitation, he seems already rehabilitated.

tigercorp

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#2614416 1-Dec-2020 23:56

networkn:

To what end does his punishment serve?

It tells thousands of children and adults who play or enjoy watching rugby that racism and degrading views are bad and shouldn't be tolerated. Pretty worthwhile messaging I think.

i do also believe that it helps the people who got "caught" as there's nothing like actual consequences to make you re-evaluate your thinking.

Personally I hope the guys get a second chance (i.e that the suspensions are temporary) so that they get the opportunity to publicly redeem themselves. Saying you're sorry after being caught isn't as meaningful as proving you've improved over a period of time.

Handle9

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#2614422 2-Dec-2020 00:57

networkn:

MikeB4:

There should be zero tolerance for racism. What has happened to him is appropriate.

To what end does his punishment serve? It was 9 years ago, he is already sorry, he no longer holds these views and he can do far more with what he has learned in the position he holds, setting an example to others that big tough guys can change their views and admit their mistakes and that racism isn't an accepted view. Punishment is (should be) about rehabilitation, he seems already rehabilitated.

All actions have consequences, positive and negative. Is he sorry for the tweets or sorry he got caught? I don't know and I have no idea about the sincererity of his apology. He needs to bear the consequences in the same way Israel Folau or any other public figure does.

It's entirely appropriate that he is stood down in the interim while this is investigated. This is very early days so let's see what shakes out over the next few weeks.

Handle9

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#2614423 2-Dec-2020 01:25

Technofreak:

If this was so important should he have ever been appointed to the role?

This is a fairly silly point.

It's analogous to a CEO resigning after being found out to be guilty of historical sexual harassment. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean that it doesn't have present day consequences.

mdooher

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#2614482 2-Dec-2020 07:32

tigercorp:

networkn:

To what end does his punishment serve?

It tells thousands of children and adults who play or enjoy watching rugby that racism and degrading views are bad and shouldn't be tolerated. Pretty worthwhile messaging I think.

No, it doesn't, it tells them to keep their opinions to themselves.

Matthew

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#2614498 2-Dec-2020 08:08

Welcome to the New Puritan Age.

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#2614500 2-Dec-2020 08:10

Handle9:
Technofreak:

If this was so important should he have ever been appointed to the role?

This is a fairly silly point.

It's analogous to a CEO resigning after being found out to be guilty of historical sexual harassment. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean that it doesn't have present day consequences.

How is anyone supposed to guard against that? Nobody can predict what might not be acceptable in 30 years but which is acceptable today.

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#2614502 2-Dec-2020 08:16

Geektastic:

How is anyone supposed to guard against that? Nobody can predict what might not be acceptable in 30 years but which is acceptable today.

it wasn’t acceptable 30 years ago or 9 years ago; and isn’t acceptable today, or 30 years in the future. It isn’t acceptable just because *you* think it is acceptable.

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