Coffee machine recommendations?

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Hammered
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#2868661 15-Feb-2022 14:13

ShinyChrome:
I thought I would open the creaky crypt door on this one, since with the Omicron infection raging outside the walls, it is time to focus on what is really important: the coffee must flow.

In a stroke of genius on my part, I managed to convince the SO that we should re-allocate some of the funds we were going to use on our now cancelled trip away to picking up a Breville Infuser:

I'm still getting the hang of everything, but James Hoffman and r/espresso have been obliging. While the infuser seems to be up to my meager barista skills level for now, one thing is clear though; the ole' hand grinder is just not going to cut the mustard.

I'd initially looked at the Breville SGP as suggested earlier, but after reading some of the feedback and checking out the NZ market, it seems like investing a little bit extra, say around the $500-600, gets you to a sweet-spot of performance and longevity before real diminishing returns set in. Features like timers don't really add value to me, as I plan to be dosing by weight.

So far, I've had the Baratza Sette 270 and Eureka Mignon Manuale on my radar in that price-point; both have the goods to fine-tune espresso grinds, but the Baratza seems to have a bad reputation for lunching it's gearbox after a couple of years and sounds like a jet engine from all counts, whereas the Eureka is "built like a tank" and relatively quiet from all accounts.

The Eureka seemed to be the way to go, but then I came across the Urbanic 080 on Reddit. They cover the range here, but the brief highlights of the 080 are step-less adjustment, 60mm flat vertical burrs, 250w motor... from accounts, it appears to be a good quality re-production of an older commercial design (Lance Hedrick covered a range of them here, but the 070s) and is shipped directly from the manufacturer in Korea. Most of the reviews I have read from owners seem to be pretty positive, just good raw performance without the fancy bells-and-whistles. Going by the e-shop, it would be about $586 NZD landed here for the S/S burrs, or an extra $50 premium for the titanium burrs. Support from the company seems to be pretty good as well, coming from an owner I have spoken to about it.

Any experience with any of the above, or other options I should be considering in in that price range?

We bought the same machine (The Infuser) in stainless finish a few weeks back on special. We also picked up a Breville Smart Grinder Pro for $250. At that price, the bang-for-buck meter had the needle in the right spot. It works well. Once dialled in for our requirements, grinds exactly enough at the right coarseness(?) with no wastage, each and every time.

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#2868947 15-Feb-2022 16:37

@ShinyChrome welcome down the rabbit hole of coffee. It's just as bad (and fun) as home theatre. The infuser is a great learning machine, I ran one for around 5 years before upgrading.

What ever you plan to spend on a grinder try and spend a bit more. The grinder will make a massive difference to your coffee, far more than going from your infuser to a $3000 Italian machine will. Those generic grinder seem ok but I wouldn't bother at that sort of money.

Whatever you do buy a small electronic scale, preferably with a shot timer. They help make you much more consistent.

Are you planning on single dosing? Both those machines make it pretty difficult to get a consistent dose without wastage if you don't single dose as they have no dose timer.

I ran a Eureka Mignon Specialita with an infuser for around 5 months. The difference in quality of the grind and coffee was stark coming from a Breville Smart Grinder. The Eurekas are incredibly well built and aren't difficult to strip for cleaning. You can still get some retention but it's really not too bad. The Manuale is the same chassis but smaller burrs and no dose timer. I think it's probably a bit louder than the Specialitia, which is really quiet.

I'd recommend the Mignon in a heartbeat but of course there are some negatives.

- The grind adjustment dial is really small and you can turn it multiple times. Once you are dialled in and set up it's all good and you only make fine adjustments but if you have to reset up the grinder you can waste a fair bit dealing in.

- I don't like the portafilter holder and don't use it. I use a small metal cup which is a rip off of the niche zero dosing cup.

- The design with the "notch" at the front means I can't fit a mat hard up against the grinder so I have to lift the grinder to clean.

- It does popcorn pretty badly if you do single dose, they really aren't designed for that. Eureka has brought out a single dose version of the Mignon

If you are ok with self importing you can import direct from Europe. I bought my grinder from espressocoffeeshop.com and more recently bought my espresso machine from 30.coffee. Both delivered to the Middle East in 3-4 days.

Also this thread might be useful or you as well.

ShinyChrome

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#2868951 15-Feb-2022 16:46

Senecio:

I've recently upgraded my grinder to the Eureka Mignon Specialista. What I love about it.

Small, we don't have a large kitchen so needed something small on the bench top
Quiet. It is significantly quieter that my previous grinder
Very fine adjustment. If you are always using the same beans this might not be that important but if like me you are changing beans every week then being able to dial in the grind adjustment is important
You get very consistent grind output, not a large dispersion of courses and fines. Important to prevent channeling and make sure you get a good extraction

Where are you based? If Auckland I still have my old Rancilio Rocky doserless in storage that you could use to tide you over until you decide which way to go?

Nice, thanks for the feedback. As far as I can tell, the Specialista looks like the super-duper version of the Mignon line, with 5mm bigger burrs, the Silenzio sound deadening, finer adjustment, and a more powerful motor, on top of the timer etc. The size is a good point too, as I have limited counter space at the time for appliances.

Unfortunately, in the Manawatu, but thanks for the generous offer!

Stu:

We bought the same machine (The Infuser) in stainless finish a few weeks back on special. We also picked up a Breville Smart Grinder Pro for $250. At that price, the bang-for-buck meter had the needle in the right spot. It works well. Once dialled in for our requirements, grinds exactly enough at the right coarseness(?) with no wastage, each and every time.

That's good to hear, it seems to be a popular pairing. Most of the complaints I saw were around retention and clumping, but it seems to be mixed, as others have also had the same feedback as you about the performance for the price (on special, at least).

I also wonder if there is an element of the snobbery that was talked about earlier, where Breville is seen as an appliance maker and not "a real coffee brand".

ShinyChrome

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#2868985 15-Feb-2022 17:01

Thanks for that @Handle9, I also do seem to find the expensive rabbit hole hobbies haha. I guess that's what I am trying to do, since I had originally only budgeted for the SGP on sale (~$250), but thought I'd try to punch up a little!

Good to know about the infuser, and yes, I am starting to see how important the grinder is in the equation.

Single dose is probably going to be the way to go I assume? As opposed to a double dose for both myself and the SO, then trying to separate into two doses. It's probably only occasionally I will make one for just myself, since we are both predominately WFH.

I am using a set of small kitchen scales at the moment, but will be picking up a set of 0.1g scales from Amazon at some point in the near future (along with a dosing ring, messy as hell ATM), so I was hoping that after figuring out the retention on the grinder, I can just measure the beans in, dose cup from grinder to portafilter, then measure the shot output on the Infuser.

I'm only planning on using it for espresso, so apart from fine tuning different beans, it shouldn't be wildly different grinds.

I'd looked at ECS, but hadn't actually bothered to work out the exchange rate difference/shipping cost to NZ. I'll run the numbers and see how it stacks.

Thanks for the pointer to the other thread! I'd seen it when I was looking at machines, but missed it this time. I probably should have used that one instead, my bad! Your setup looks great though!

Handle9

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#2868991 15-Feb-2022 17:17

I don't single dose because laziness but I have a dose timer on the Mignon Specialitia. You can single dose on all those machines but it's not ideal. On the eurekas you can buy single dose hoppers and/or bellows if you want.

I wouldn't discount the smart grinder either. The difference between the performance of the Smart Grinder and my Specialitia is significant but it worked fine for me for 5 years and is really well priced.

If it was my money I'd either buy the smart grinder or something in the Specialitia class. I think in the middle you are spending a significant amount of money but will want to upgrade inside 3 years if coffee is your thing.

The shot timer on the infuser is actually decent but you are measuring volume not weight so if you change beans you may need to reset it.

The infuser is a great machine to start, the main differences between that and my much more expensive Italian machine is steam power, dual boiler, a rotary pump is really quiet and about 15kg of stainless steel. The Breville is super quick to warm up and has some of nice features that my Bianca doesn't have.

You'll have a lot of fun and learn heaps about coffee.

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#2868996 15-Feb-2022 17:23

ShinyChrome:

I also wonder if there is an element of the snobbery that was talked about earlier, where Breville is seen as an appliance maker and not "a real coffee brand".

It's quite interesting the amount of respect that Breville gets from the coffee community. They are pretty well known for making really feature rich machines at decent prices. There's a really active community and quite a lot of mods around. It's not the same with brands like DeLonghi.

Sure some clowns are "e61 or die" but the most of the coffee forums really respect what Breville do.

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Senecio

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#2869004 15-Feb-2022 17:31

I'm a proud coffee snob, don't mind admitting it at all. But if I'm asked for advice for a good entry level coffee machine I nearly always recommend a Breville unit. What's right for me isn't right for others. Most people just want a unit that they can turn on in the morning, pull a shot and steam some milk and be done with it without any faffing around. Not everyone enjoys the coffee making process like I do so I would never encourage them to go down my path.

Now if they buy the Breville unit and develop a passion for it and come back looking for upgrade advice, that's an entirely different story!

jonathan18

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#2869028 15-Feb-2022 18:50

ShinyChrome:

Thanks for that @Handle9, I also do seem to find the expensive rabbit hole hobbies haha. I guess that's what I am trying to do, since I had originally only budgeted for the SGP on sale (~$250), but thought I'd try to punch up a little!

Good to know about the infuser, and yes, I am starting to see how important the grinder is in the equation.

Single dose is probably going to be the way to go I assume? As opposed to a double dose for both myself and the SO, then trying to separate into two doses. It's probably only occasionally I will make one for just myself, since we are both predominately WFH.

I am using a set of small kitchen scales at the moment, but will be picking up a set of 0.1g scales from Amazon at some point in the near future (along with a dosing ring, messy as hell ATM), so I was hoping that after figuring out the retention on the grinder, I can just measure the beans in, dose cup from grinder to portafilter, then measure the shot output on the Infuser.

I'm only planning on using it for espresso, so apart from fine tuning different beans, it shouldn't be wildly different grinds.

I'd looked at ECS, but hadn't actually bothered to work out the exchange rate difference/shipping cost to NZ. I'll run the numbers and see how it stacks.

Thanks for the pointer to the other thread! I'd seen it when I was looking at machines, but missed it this time. I probably should have used that one instead, my bad! Your setup looks great though!

Good on you for pushing 'buy'; are you pleased with what it produces thus far?

In regards to grinders, even if you start with something on the 'cheaper' end like the Breville Smart Grinder, there seems to always be decent interest in good-value coffee things on TM so I imagine that if you later decide to upgrade you'd not lose much.

I've never bothered going down the single dosing route - too much effort, especially in the morning when I'm already competing for bench space with the rest of the family - so am happy to take the dose directly from the grinder and therefore haven't looked at dosing rings, scales etc; but my one recentish purchase I'd rank over all others is a distributor. I didn't go flash - just one from AliExpress (recommend this store - prices are good and shipping has always been fast; I think I've bought most of any accessories like tamper, mat etc from them) - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003104801617.html. Not only do I get far fewer grinds around the group head gasket, it clearly does wonders in producing a much more even flow (going by the pressure reading; again, don't have a bottomless portafilter!).

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#2869228 15-Feb-2022 22:15

We have a Delonghi Specialista Maestro.

It's really good.

yann

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#2869311 16-Feb-2022 03:53

I'd echo the sentiments about the Breville gear these days. I've had a couple of Breville Smart Grinders, one of the original release versions (maybe one of the earlier builds in the country) which had a couple of issues like the ability to grind fine enough for some espresso though Phil at Breville sorted people out with shim kits for these early models. I did get a SGP later as well, though my ones were mainly used for filter coffee and not espresso. I ended up giving my ones away as I ended up with a Mahlkonig Vario for my filter grinding. But that is similar in use to the SGP which at around $250 or less at times, is a lot of grinder ability and functionality for the price. I think there is always variations in terms everyone's mileage, but I found retention to be pretty low, easy adjustability, and relatively quiet compared to some grinders I have had. I didn't really experience too much clumping, though I tend not to grind anything super dark (oily), and ground mainly for filter variants.

Espresso wise, I tend to single dose, though have been using an Elektra Nino grinder - which isn't really geared for singles dosing, but does pretty well, very little retention, always fluffy grounds and pretty quiet. Though by single dose, I am not relying on the automatic dose control of the grinder, but am weighing on scales to 0.01g, and into VST filters.

But Breville have been doing a pretty good job over the last ten years or so, listening to customers (probably more the earlier days), and then producing feature rich devices which do a decent job. I think James Hoffmann has also done a few reviews with some of the Breville/Sage products that have been sent to him and he has mostly good things to say about the devices (they do seem more expensive in the UK in comparison though).

As others have mentioned, you probably can't go too wrong with the SGP if you want to start out within budget type thing. I think from there after use, you can establish what the limiting factors might be, and determine what features are important to you and what that might lead you to in terms of an upgrade. But I think the SGP would work fine in most everyone's workflow/use, and might be fine for now. Always a danger for people who go large to start off with, but at times the interest fades so they can be left with a large/expensive paperweight. But if you look out for a sale, pick one up cheap and end up deciding to upgrade later, then they still seem to sell well second hand, and you won't make too much of a loss.

Yann :)

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#2869630 16-Feb-2022 13:44

I ended up buying a Breville Touch about a month ago, no regrets.

Setup my own setting for the flat white instead of the preprogrammed one due to how frothy the milk was coming out and its a lot better now..

Bought this version so the partner can use it for the automatic milk frothing option.

On a side note, have been trying different local bean roasters to support local but I do notice a difference on the extraction.

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#2869634 16-Feb-2022 13:57

qwertee:

Handsomedan:

I've had a Breville Barista Express for a number of years and find it to be excellent - it's not the flashest, most expensive or newest model on the block, but it makes me a damn good coffee...in fact it makes me several damn good coffees every day.

https://www.breville.com/nz/en/products/espresso/bes870.html

Can be had for as low as $600 on sale, but according to Breville, full retail is $1200.00

When I say "a number of years" I mean somewhere in the region of 5-6 years without a single failure.

Edit: Spelling

Hi

I am Nespresso capsule user. I have been eyeing this Breville unit for a long time. Kitchen bench space is limited and using grounds also creates a mess!

Do you leave it on standby during the night and how quickly does it start up for you to brew a coffee in the morning?

cheers

I'll break from the pack here and say get a Breville Creatista Plus Nespresso machine. It makes what I feel is better coffee than a cheap expresso machine. Has a steam wand so you can practice your late art.

Doesn't take up much bench space either.

I'm not too much of a coffee snob but personally think you're not getting much more from ever increasingly expensive machines.

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#2869687 16-Feb-2022 15:30

IMO it'll be a rare espresso machine, no matter how cheap, that can't produce a coffee that's better than a Nespresso - its strengths lie elsewhere, ie it can probably turn out consistent coffee that isn't affected much by the user or their skillset; it's quicker; less mess... There's a place for it, but it's not about quality for sure.

Handle9

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#2869705 16-Feb-2022 16:27

jonathan18: IMO it'll be a rare espresso machine, no matter how cheap, that can't produce a coffee that's better than a Nespresso - its strengths lie elsewhere, ie it can probably turn out consistent coffee that isn't affected much by the user or their skillset; it's quicker; less mess... There's a place for it, but it's not about quality for sure.

Pretty much. If you like Nespresso and it works for you then that’s great. It doesn’t work for me for a variety of reasons. The quality of the coffee isn’t really comparable.

Stu

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#2869960 16-Feb-2022 22:20

We've had a couple of Nespresso machines over the past few years, and thought the coffee was okay for a quick and easy coffee at home. Since having the Breville 'The Infuser', we've realised how bad the Nespresso coffees are. We still have a few pods left and are slowly getting through them. As well as not really being a nice coffee, the coffee tastes burnt compared with what we're producing with the Breville espresso machine. Not enjoying the Nespresso coffee at all now.

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