The grammar and spelling thread

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#2712971 25-May-2021 19:25

Fred99: As there seem to be some erudite philologists, lexicologists, linguists etc participating in this thread, does anybody know what the words of our glorious national song mean.

This is a word shortening originating from the medieval order of battle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_(formation)

granada29

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#2713013 25-May-2021 22:56

One thing that annoys me is the way Americans will use the word 'bring' where I would say 'take'.

e.g.

USA: Would you please bring me to the airport with you.

Me: Would you please take me to the airport with you.

Maybe it's a generational rather than regional thing, and I don't know which is right or wrong, but when I hear the USA version it makes me go grrrrrrr.

Hmmmmm - maybe this should be in the Small Things That Annoy Me thread

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#2713068 25-May-2021 23:32

MadEngineer:
pdh: People who say "Can I..." when they mean "May I.." - asking for permission.

I commonly respond "I imagine so.". Just to increase the joy on the planet.

That reminds me of how I feel every time someone asks via email if I can do something for them. The urge to reply ‘yes I can but do you want me to?’ is strong.

I frequently get people saying to me "can I ask you a question?"

My reply, every time, is "you just did. Would you like to ask me another?"

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#2713077 26-May-2021 02:38

S'il vous plait is more accurately translated as 'if it pleases you'.

Which I feel opens the door to it _not_ pleasing me - hence giving me the option of refusing.

Of course, in life one does do things that don't please one... sometimes the alternatives are less attractive.

Fred99

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#2713092 26-May-2021 08:54

gzt:
Fred99: As there seem to be some erudite philologists, lexicologists, linguists etc participating in this thread, does anybody know what the words of our glorious national song mean.

This is a word shortening originating from the medieval order of battle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_(formation)

There are times when the saying "Wikipedia is not a reference" should be heeded.
I can't find any other reference to the use of "van" as an abbreviation for "vanguard", it would surprise me - not - if someone edited the Wikipedia page in order to reference it as "proof" that our awful embarrassment of a national anthem written by an Irish poet - whose other work seemed to be soppy sentimental rhyming verses and hymns - didn't invent the abbreviation "van" for convenience simply because it rhymed.

Even if it is a real word in context, the ditty or hymn or whatever it's called - that we're supposed to "respect" - is horrible in every way. The Te Reo version isn't much better, though fortunately less of an embarrassing cringe - because practically nobody on the rest of planet Earth can understand it.

Even forgetting the awful lyrics, the structure of the lyrics combined with the tune sucks. For example, it starts with:

god OF nay SHUNS at thy AYE feet. The tune forces the accent on to the capitalised syllables. one of which had to be invented. And then it gets worse.

SirHumphreyAppleby

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#2713094 26-May-2021 09:02

Fred99:

Even forgetting the awful lyrics, the structure of the lyrics combined with the tune sucks.

Alan Slater's arrangement, the one used at World Expo 88 and by TVNZ for several years, is the only decent version of an otherwise dreary song.

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Bung

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#2713099 26-May-2021 09:23

Fred99:
There's mention of a nation's van. Though the description seems to fit (especially when there's mention of a triple star rating), the lyrics were written at least a century before the Toyota Hiace appeared. Wikipedia indicates that "van" is an abbreviation for "vanguard" (presumably not the 1947-63 English car), I can't find dictionary references to "van" as an abbreviation, Wikipedia do reference its definition back to Te Ara, but that only seems to mention it as one of several "old-fashioned or obscure" words.

You're looking in the wrong dictionaries. Oxford English references it back to early 1600s as a shortening of vanguard.

"1616 F. Beaumont & J. Fletcher Scornful Ladie v. sig. K2v Come who leads? Sir Roger, you shall haue the Van: leade the way."

You should be able to access the OED online full version through your library.

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#2713101 26-May-2021 09:27

Fred99:

Even forgetting the awful lyrics, the structure of the lyrics combined with the tune sucks. For example, it starts with:

god OF nay SHUNS at thy AYE feet. The tune forces the accent on to the capitalised syllables. one of which had to be invented. And then it gets worse.

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of the stress - I'd say it was more
GOD of NAY shuns...
It definitely is a dirge though.

Tom Scott has a 5-minute video on stresses which cleverly illustrates why getting the stresses wrong in songs and poems, etc. sounds just a little off.
'Why Shakespeare Could Never Have Been French'

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Gurezaemon

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#2713103 26-May-2021 09:30

pdh:

S'il vous plait is more accurately translated as 'if it pleases you'.

Which I feel opens the door to it _not_ pleasing me - hence giving me the option of refusing.

Of course, in life one does do things that don't please one... sometimes the alternatives are less attractive.

It's still a little better than 'Thank you for keeping off the grass' which strikes me as more passive-aggressive.

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Kiwifruta

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#2713125 26-May-2021 10:38

SirHumphreyAppleby:
Gurezaemon:

"Three pūkekos' seems a little weird compared to 'Three pūkeko'.

Makes sense. Latin plurals often end in vowels.

Could three pūkekos refer to three species of pūkeko, like three fishes refers to three species of fish and not three fish?

Rikkitic

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#2713144 26-May-2021 11:57

pdh:

S'il vous plait is more accurately translated as 'if it pleases you'.

Which I feel opens the door to it _not_ pleasing me - hence giving me the option of refusing.

Of course, in life one does do things that don't please one... sometimes the alternatives are less attractive.

The Dutch version is identical to the French: Alstublieft - Als Het U Belieft. It is also used in the sense of 'here you go' or 'here you are'. A waiter or retail worker will usually say this when they hand you something.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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Fred99

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#2713163 26-May-2021 13:02

Gurezaemon:

Fred99:

Even forgetting the awful lyrics, the structure of the lyrics combined with the tune sucks. For example, it starts with:

god OF nay SHUNS at thy AYE feet. The tune forces the accent on to the capitalised syllables. one of which had to be invented. And then it gets worse.

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of the stress - I'd say it was more
GOD of NAY shuns...

You're imagining Kiri Te Kanawa singing it.

Most NZ citizens sing the Lynn of Tawa version, eh.

linw

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#2713226 26-May-2021 14:52

The constant use of "right now", when "now" would be fine, irks me. Especially common with Americans but now picked up by many radio hosts and hostesses.

The American commentator on NewstalkZB in the after 4 session is particularly bad.