When working a 68-hour week still doesn't cut it

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750 posts

Ultimate Geek

#903597 27-Sep-2013 10:43

MaxLV:

But employers sure as hell demand the government dictate the minimum wage stay at 14.40 an hour and the general wages/salary levels be kept as low as possible dont they.

Businesses also do all they can to avoid paying tax, and get a lot more tax rebates and handouts from the government and tax payer than their employees do.

Aren't those Employers all really decent folks after all - the current minimum wage is $13.75!

Some would say it is a citizen's (both personal and corporate) legal responsibility to pay taxes that are due and these taxes should not be evaded. Conversely every citizen has a moral responsibility to use the legislative framework to reduce their tax obligations and thus avoid overpayment of taxes due.

Tax is a simple issue and some fail to see that things like Lotto is just another tax on the poor which they choose to pay. It’s a regressive tax because those that can least afford it pay the most. Its also a tax on the stupid who don’t understand probability and fail to see the wealth redistribution that comes from a lotto purchase. But some will argue everyone has the right to dream, in much they same way as many dream to own their own business. Any thoughts on where some of your $18.40 is likely to be spent?

1080p

1332 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#903784 27-Sep-2013 15:00

@MaxLV:

The beautiful thing about New Zealand and any other free country is that starting your own business is entirely possible.

If you're unhappy with the way minimum wage employees are treated then you can start your own and treat yours better. Be the change you want to see and all that. But, you know, good luck when the reality arrives with its bill.

1080p

1332 posts

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Inactive user

#903785 27-Sep-2013 15:01

There appears to be a redirect error when clicking the submit button to a post. The button takes you back a page.

hangon

397 posts

Ultimate Geek

#903977 28-Sep-2013 00:45

One question, what would happen to the other guy, who trained and got a pay rise to $18.4 last month?

Does he get a similar bump to say $23.4 after "living wage" is implemented? Or just rinse n repeat and try get another pay rise (if employer can afford) next year?

1080p

1332 posts

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Inactive user

#903981 28-Sep-2013 01:13

hangon: One question, what would happen to the other guy, who trained and got a pay rise to $18.4 last month?

Does he get a similar bump to say $23.4 after "living wage" is implemented? Or just rinse n repeat and try get another pay rise (if employer can afford) next year?

This is the crux of the issue, really, and one most living wage supporters refuse to face. In order to retain valued staff wages will be forced to move upwards at the same or similar rate as the new 'minimum wage' does. An incredibly basic understanding of economics means that prices will rise because supply and demand remain unchanged and in a few months/years we will be back in the same place as we are now.

macuser

2120 posts

Uber Geek

#904017 28-Sep-2013 09:20

MaxLV:
Inphinity:
MaxLV:
Most (all?) employers, no matter how big or small, obviously have enough profit coming out of the business to afford the material 'must haves' and lifestyles that makes a 'lie' of any claims they make about running the business on 'razor thin' profit margins and cant afford to pay their employees a 'living wage'.

The $$ figure on an annual report is not the only measure of how profitable a business is.

So which business is it again that you run that employs 100 people and returns you just equivalent of the minimum wage?

If there is a business that is really returning just the minimum wages to the business owner, then the seriously need to look at what they're doing wrong in the running of that business.

The reality: Boss says he's only getting minimum wage from his business.
He drives a car that cost $70K His wife has her own car that cost $50K, their house has a GV of $950K and a mortgage of 1.5M. Their kids go to a private school. Their house is packed to the rafters with all the latest must haves...

How do the pay for it all on the minimum wage they're taking out of the company? Because hes paying himself (and his wife and possibly the kids) minimum wage to cut their income tax to the lowest rate possible. The cars and house are on the company books as 'assets' that are paid for out of company bank accounts, and on top of that his accountant works the tax breaks and rebates on these depreciating company assets.

All legal and above board, but sure as hell has a lifestyle that isn't anything like the lifestyle of his minimum wage employees.

FYI this most definitely isn't legal and is fraud, any assets must be only used by the business, and if they have a personal use that must be declared as a percentage, with only the business percentage being tax deductible...

minimoke

750 posts

Ultimate Geek

#904058 28-Sep-2013 10:58

macuser:

FYI this most definitely isn't legal and is fraud, any assets must be only used by the business, and if they have a personal use that must be declared as a percentage, with only the business percentage being tax deductible...

On one side you have the business related expense of running the Hummer through the business which is tax deductible. On the other side you have the personal use of the Hummer being taken to the local cafe which attracts Fringe Benefit Tax payable by the boss man.

More tax paid equals less cash to take home. As always the flip of that coin is also more tax paid equals more government ability to pay WWF. So we actually need boss man in his flash work car so the serfs can breed

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macuser

2120 posts

Uber Geek

#904222 28-Sep-2013 16:51

Klipspringer: To those that seem to have taken offense to this thread.. Point taken, I have had a good think about it and I have to say I agree, Its not really related to geekzone and I will refrain from posting threads like this in the future.

My gripe with this one was that I deemed it very unfair that people like me subsidise this kind of lifestyle. The article to me was clearly a joke and there is no ways this guy is living so close to the so called “poverty line”. But at the end of the day, its just my opinion, it was not meant to upset anyone, nor was it intended to judge.

I’m a capitalist, and I have my own views about socialism which I will try and keep out of geekzone in the future. Again, my apologies if my posts of late have upset anyone. Agreed, there are better places to have these type of conversations. Geekzone is not the place. In future I will try and stick to technology discussions. And try and not jump into these kinds of discussions again…

To the mods, you have indicated that you happy to let these kind of discussions continue. Maybe some advice then, move the “off topic” forum to the bottom of the page. And maybe move these threads out of the live stream? Currently when logging onto the geekzone forums, the “Off topic” thread seems to be right near the top, above everything else (geekzone related)

Cheers guys… See you in the technology forums…Apologies again.

I'm a bit late but I have to say thanks man, I wasn't trying to attack you so much as draw attention to it and I appreciate what you have said, I understand you are also a long time member and this site is mine as much as yours.

Athlonite

1828 posts

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Inactive user

#905629 1-Oct-2013 12:09

minimoke:
blakamin:
Love the people saying "get a job that pays overtime". You know how many places in NZ pay overtime?
/rant

I pay more than $14.40. And overtime T 1 1/2 after 40 hours. And I haven't the benefit of a university education. Opportunities are out there but I suspect too many spend too much time wallowing in self pity with a half full glass.

And don't moan to me about companies not paying overtime. Its the local Wellington Council we are talking about here. They are the ones not paying the towie. They are the ones exploiting the worker and you people in Wellington are the ones who elect your Council. I just don't see how you can reconcile this abuse with letting them get away with wanting to pay someone more than they are worth.

actually he's not employed by the council he's employed by armaguard who are contracted to the council and as a security company they do pay shyte wages to even those who do money runs to banks unlike their australian counterparts who make double that plus danger money for bank runs

matisyahu

1623 posts

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Trusted

#905696 1-Oct-2013 13:21

Klipspringer:
With bills to pay and a baby on the way, Wellington parking warden Esau Taniela tackles a 68-hour working week to bring home $719, while his pregnant partner works three jobs.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9200190/When-working-a-68-hour-week-still-doesn-t-cut-it

And a simple google search brings up his facebook profile displaying plenty of photos which contradict the whole story.

Lets take it on face value - struggling to pay the bills and yet pregnant with yet another child? "hey, we're struggling to make ends meet! I know, lets have another child because it must magially make things easier by having another mouth to feed!".

Notice btw, the complete lack of any specifics in the article - there are genuinely needy people out there but most of the time I find that that those who make the most noise tend to be the ones who got themselves into trouble the first place.

As for him 'struggling' on $719 - poor snookums, maybe he can live on the $513 per week I live on after paying tax and student loan - I'm on a salary and routinely do more than 50 hours per week doing the late shifts.

Regarding sensationalism - lets remember the lady who 'died after drinking too much coke' only to find that after a few minutes of using Google I actually found that she was a chain smoking mum with multiple kids, teeth pulled out and warned numerous times by her GP about the impact of her unhealthy lifestyle but of course all those details were left out by stuff.co.nz because god forbid having some balance.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

minimoke

750 posts

Ultimate Geek

#905716 1-Oct-2013 13:39

Athlonite:
actually he's not employed by the council he's employed by armaguard who are contracted to the council and as a security company they do pay shyte wages to even those who do money runs to banks unlike their australian counterparts who make double that plus danger money for bank runs

If we go back to the original article it says “The 22-year-old Parkwise worker is one of hundreds of council staff who stand to benefit from a Wellington City Council commitment to a living wage.”. The article should have perhaps said that Contractors to the Council stand to benefit.

If the Wellington City Council is using contractors that exploit their workers that is something for the Council (and rate payers) to sort out. Even Apple Inc reportedly draw the line at milking Chinese out sourced labour for 60 hours a week.

So I’m pleased I’m not in Wellington. As a rate payer I would object to funding young Esau’s decisions. But I’m flabbergasted that ratepayers are happy subsiding private companies to keep their staff on wages. Jeez – I wouldn’t mind if my local council paid me $4.00 an hour an employee – except of course I’d realize that would be me exploiting our local ratepayers who are burdened enough already. I don’t see anything equitable or fair in that!

PaulBags

809 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#905950 1-Oct-2013 19:56

kawaii:
Klipspringer:
With bills to pay and a baby on the way, Wellington parking warden Esau Taniela tackles a 68-hour working week to bring home $719, while his pregnant partner works three jobs.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9200190/When-working-a-68-hour-week-still-doesn-t-cut-it

And a simple google search brings up his facebook profile displaying plenty of photos which contradict the whole story.

Lets take it on face value - struggling to pay the bills and yet pregnant with yet another child? "hey, we're struggling to make ends meet! I know, lets have another child because it must magially make things easier by having another mouth to feed!".

Notice btw, the complete lack of any specifics in the article - there are genuinely needy people out there but most of the time I find that that those who make the most noise tend to be the ones who got themselves into trouble the first place.

As for him 'struggling' on $719 - poor snookums, maybe he can live on the $513 per week I live on after paying tax and student loan - I'm on a salary and routinely do more than 50 hours per week doing the late shifts.

Regarding sensationalism - lets remember the lady who 'died after drinking too much coke' only to find that after a few minutes of using Google I actually found that she was a chain smoking mum with multiple kids, teeth pulled out and warned numerous times by her GP about the impact of her unhealthy lifestyle but of course all those details were left out by stuff.co.nz because god forbid having some balance.

A) We do not have at will abortion in this country, so you can't fault her for being pregnant unless she specifically set out to become so.
B) Caffeine is highly addictive, so is sugar, so is nicotine. Might seem all well and good to say 'just stop', but it actually doesn't work like that. Somehow she would have to deal with the stress of life that she already wasn't dealing with, while raising a kid, while fighting multiple withdrawal symptoms. Now if she could actually get some help, and/or coke would admit how addictive their product is, she might have had a chance.

dickytim

2514 posts

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#906107 2-Oct-2013 06:51

PaulBags:
kawaii:
Klipspringer:
With bills to pay and a baby on the way, Wellington parking warden Esau Taniela tackles a 68-hour working week to bring home $719, while his pregnant partner works three jobs.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9200190/When-working-a-68-hour-week-still-doesn-t-cut-it

And a simple google search brings up his facebook profile displaying plenty of photos which contradict the whole story.

Lets take it on face value - struggling to pay the bills and yet pregnant with yet another child? "hey, we're struggling to make ends meet! I know, lets have another child because it must magially make things easier by having another mouth to feed!".

Notice btw, the complete lack of any specifics in the article - there are genuinely needy people out there but most of the time I find that that those who make the most noise tend to be the ones who got themselves into trouble the first place.

As for him 'struggling' on $719 - poor snookums, maybe he can live on the $513 per week I live on after paying tax and student loan - I'm on a salary and routinely do more than 50 hours per week doing the late shifts.

Regarding sensationalism - lets remember the lady who 'died after drinking too much coke' only to find that after a few minutes of using Google I actually found that she was a chain smoking mum with multiple kids, teeth pulled out and warned numerous times by her GP about the impact of her unhealthy lifestyle but of course all those details were left out by stuff.co.nz because god forbid having some balance.

A) We do not have at will abortion in this country, so you can't fault her for being pregnant unless she specifically set out to become so.
B) Caffeine is highly addictive, so is sugar, so is nicotine. Might seem all well and good to say 'just stop', but it actually doesn't work like that. Somehow she would have to deal with the stress of life that she already wasn't dealing with, while raising a kid, while fighting multiple withdrawal symptoms. Now if she could actually get some help, and/or coke would admit how addictive their product is, she might have had a chance.

This thread has been and gone and really doesn't need to be re-hashed.

Arguments were:
Personal responsibility
Government responsibility
Coke was responsible
Then the circle went around.

I suggest if you want to continue this argument you ask for the old topic to be opened...

Inphinity

2780 posts

Uber Geek

#906113 2-Oct-2013 07:54

PaulBags:
A) We do not have at will abortion in this country, so you can't fault her for being pregnant unless she specifically set out to become so.

Plenty of options for preventing it in the first place, though.

PaulBags

809 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#906135 2-Oct-2013 08:45

Inphinity:
PaulBags:
A) We do not have at will abortion in this country, so you can't fault her for being pregnant unless she specifically set out to become so.

Plenty of options for preventing it in the first place, though.

None of which are %100 effective, except perhaps geting fixed. But they won't allow you to do that at 22, "in case you want kids later", even if you realllly don't.

[edit] Well, ok, keeping your legs shut works too. Unless you get raped, but they'd probably let you abort that. So long as your morals would let you.

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