Kirpan Daggers on Planes

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MadEngineer

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#1261945 18-Mar-2015 20:40

Can't you tell from my curiously deep blue eyes that I am a true native!? Don't unsheathe that blade or I shall have to draw blood!!! Fear is the mind killer!

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

Dratsab

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#1262015 18-Mar-2015 22:35

MadEngineer: Fear is the mind killer!

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

cokeman2

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#1262317 19-Mar-2015 12:14

if it was allowed here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-2064280/London-2012-Olympics-Sikhs-allowed-wear-Kirpan-daggers-Games.html so why they ban it at a smaller venue eg cricket ground , if that was so dangerous they should ban alcohol i think there's alot more problems related with alcohol than kirpans , even be in a plane

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MikeB4

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#1262344 19-Mar-2015 12:36

cokeman2: if it was allowed here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-2064280/London-2012-Olympics-Sikhs-allowed-wear-Kirpan-daggers-Games.html so why they ban it at a smaller venue eg cricket ground , if that was so dangerous they should ban alcohol i think there's alot more problems related with alcohol than kirpans , even be in a plane

An unarmed drunk on a plane isn't going to do much, a person armed with a knife can do a lot

MikeAqua

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#1262426 19-Mar-2015 14:05

I don't think a law that happens to impact one group more than another is discriminatory. A law that deliberately sets out to undermine/alienate a particular group is discriminatory. The law says no knives. It doesn't say no Kirpans. Kirpans are a subset of knives. Other ceremonial knives are also captured by the ban.

The length of knives is largely academic. For example, the 9/11 hijackers are thought to have used box cutters.

Mike

heylinb4nz

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#1262446 19-Mar-2015 14:21

MikeAqua: I don't think a law that happens to impact one group more than another is discriminatory. A law that deliberately sets out to undermine/alienate a particular group is discriminatory. The law says no knives. It doesn't say no Kirpans. Kirpans are a subset of knives. Other ceremonial knives are also captured by the ban.

The length of knives is largely academic. For example, the 9/11 hijackers are thought to have used box cutters.

I always like to use the police E-cat hand in policy as one of those laws that deliberately set out to undermine a particular group of people.

It basically says that in order for the owner of an E-cat firearm to obtain a permit for a part for their E cat gun they must first handover a part. Its basically a law that demands the handover of private property with no re-reimbursement. This of course works fine for people replacing broken parts, but for those upgrading parts they are left out of pocket. The law itself has no effect on criminals nor does it target them in any way.

Estimates of forced hand in's are in the millions of dollars since 1990. I believe the NSANZ have a legal case before courts on this as we speak.

MikeAqua

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#1262481 19-Mar-2015 14:46

But that isn't unlawful discrimination. Unlawful grounds of discrimination are sex, race, age etc etc.

heylinb4nz:
I always like to use the police E-cat hand in policy as one of those laws that deliberately set out to undermine a particular group of people.

It basically says that in order for the owner of an E-cat firearm to obtain a permit for a part for their E cat gun they must first handover a part. Its basically a law that demands the handover of private property with no re-reimbursement. This of course works fine for people replacing broken parts, but for those upgrading parts they are left out of pocket. The law itself has no effect on criminals nor does it target them in any way.

Estimates of forced hand in's are in the millions of dollars since 1990. I believe the NSANZ have a legal case before courts on this as we speak.

Mike

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Geektastic

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#1263484 19-Mar-2015 15:28

Dratsab:
MadEngineer: Fear is the mind killer!

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Wax on, wax off, wax on, wax off.....

heylinb4nz

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#1263505 19-Mar-2015 15:51

MikeAqua: But that isn't unlawful discrimination. Unlawful grounds of discrimination are sex, race, age etc etc.

heylinb4nz:
I always like to use the police E-cat hand in policy as one of those laws that deliberately set out to undermine a particular group of people.

It basically says that in order for the owner of an E-cat firearm to obtain a permit for a part for their E cat gun they must first handover a part. Its basically a law that demands the handover of private property with no re-reimbursement. This of course works fine for people replacing broken parts, but for those upgrading parts they are left out of pocket. The law itself has no effect on criminals nor does it target them in any way.

Estimates of forced hand in's are in the millions of dollars since 1990. I believe the NSANZ have a legal case before courts on this as we speak.

Hmmm yes good point. Its lawful discrimination (the 2nd worst type).

MikeB4

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#1263508 19-Mar-2015 15:57

heylinb4nz:
Hmmm yes good point. Its lawful discrimination (the 2nd worst type).

It's not discrimination

thewanderingv

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#1264038 20-Mar-2015 13:53

I'm sorry, but am I the only one taken by how racist this thread is? I'm not Sikh, but I appreciate and respect a way of life that more than 25 million people in the world adhere to. I can appreciate the sensitivities people may have around the Sikh principles concerning Kirpan daggers, but surely there are more respectful ways to raise these issues.

Edit: Apologies - my message refers to the way this conversation started in the first few pages. My browser didn't seem to want to refresh, but it's nice that the discussion gets a lot more sensible in the latter pages!

heylinb4nz

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#1264124 20-Mar-2015 15:19

thewanderingv: I'm sorry, but am I the only one taken by how racist this thread is? I'm not Sikh, but I appreciate and respect a way of life that more than 25 million people in the world adhere to. I can appreciate the sensitivities people may have around the Sikh principles concerning Kirpan daggers, but surely there are more respectful ways to raise these issues.

Edit: Apologies - my message refers to the way this conversation started in the first few pages. My browser didn't seem to want to refresh, but it's nice that the discussion gets a lot more sensible in the latter pages!

Totally agree, we need some Atheism to balance it out.

I always find it hypocritical when groups or individuals pull or call out the racist or discrimination card, yet no doubt feel it perfectly fine to dictate to other groups people on matters not involving race or religion.

eg, we wouldn't dare tell a Sikh that we felt uncomfortable about him carrying a dagger around, but quite happy to lobby for all sorts of rules and restrictions on other law abiding groups of people.

Geektastic

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#1264155 20-Mar-2015 15:52

thewanderingv: I'm sorry, but am I the only one taken by how racist this thread is? I'm not Sikh, but I appreciate and respect a way of life that more than 25 million people in the world adhere to. I can appreciate the sensitivities people may have around the Sikh principles concerning Kirpan daggers, but surely there are more respectful ways to raise these issues.

Edit: Apologies - my message refers to the way this conversation started in the first few pages. My browser didn't seem to want to refresh, but it's nice that the discussion gets a lot more sensible in the latter pages!

You may well be.

Geektastic

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#1264157 20-Mar-2015 15:54

heylinb4nz:
thewanderingv: I'm sorry, but am I the only one taken by how racist this thread is? I'm not Sikh, but I appreciate and respect a way of life that more than 25 million people in the world adhere to. I can appreciate the sensitivities people may have around the Sikh principles concerning Kirpan daggers, but surely there are more respectful ways to raise these issues.

Edit: Apologies - my message refers to the way this conversation started in the first few pages. My browser didn't seem to want to refresh, but it's nice that the discussion gets a lot more sensible in the latter pages!

Totally agree, we need some Atheism to balance it out.

I always find it hypocritical when groups or individuals pull or call out the racist or discrimination card, yet no doubt feel it perfectly fine to dictate to other groups people on matters not involving race or religion.

eg, we wouldn't dare tell a Sikh that we felt uncomfortable about him carrying a dagger around, but quite happy to lobby for all sorts of rules and restrictions on other law abiding groups of people.

For the eventual outcome of the modern way of thinking you need only look at the Pakistani grooming scandals in several UK towns recently, in which numerous people were aware of something but elected to do nothing to avoid being decried as 'racist'.

Essentially they regarded not being seen as racist as more important than preventing young girls from being sexually abused. Mad.

thewanderingv

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#1265905 23-Mar-2015 15:05

Geektastic:
heylinb4nz:
thewanderingv: I'm sorry, but am I the only one taken by how racist this thread is? I'm not Sikh, but I appreciate and respect a way of life that more than 25 million people in the world adhere to. I can appreciate the sensitivities people may have around the Sikh principles concerning Kirpan daggers, but surely there are more respectful ways to raise these issues.

Edit: Apologies - my message refers to the way this conversation started in the first few pages. My browser didn't seem to want to refresh, but it's nice that the discussion gets a lot more sensible in the latter pages!

Totally agree, we need some Atheism to balance it out.

I always find it hypocritical when groups or individuals pull or call out the racist or discrimination card, yet no doubt feel it perfectly fine to dictate to other groups people on matters not involving race or religion.

eg, we wouldn't dare tell a Sikh that we felt uncomfortable about him carrying a dagger around, but quite happy to lobby for all sorts of rules and restrictions on other law abiding groups of people.

For the eventual outcome of the modern way of thinking you need only look at the Pakistani grooming scandals in several UK towns recently, in which numerous people were aware of something but elected to do nothing to avoid being decried as 'racist'.

Essentially they regarded not being seen as racist as more important than preventing young girls from being sexually abused. Mad.

Yes, because that's a useful comparison to the dagger issue. No. It's not. First, religion and culture are related but different concepts. The obligation for an observant Sikh to carry a dagger is religious - it's codified in their book. The issue you describe is cultural and isn't codified. Second, the act of carrying a dagger in itself causes no harm to others. It increases risks, but does not materially harm anyone in itself. The issue you describe does cause material harm to others. Third, I'm not suggesting it is inappropriate to question something that may not seem compatible with our societal norms. I'm suggesting that there are mature ways to have that conversation. The issue you describe seems to be a case of self-censorship.

I would personally feel uncomfortable with daggers being allowed into planes, and I empathise with those that feel the same way. However, that doesn't in any way justify the approach of many forum contributors. Stop the bullying and belittling to have a conversation that's actually useful. That's all I'm saying.

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