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#902366 25-Sep-2013 12:16

networkn: Who has Port Entry Tomorrow?

Doesn't matter Spittle has owns the start which ever way.

Lets all go download a java add-in and resign ourselves that in 5 years time we are likely to not be at the viaduct watching the Americas cup.

We have been out-sailed comprehensively the last few days and had all the bad luck on top of it.

tdgeek

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#902370 25-Sep-2013 12:18

networkn:
tdgeek: Winds too high tomorrow so a day off that cannot hurt

They also have the postponement day which I think wouldn't be the worst Idea in the world to stop Oracles Momentum

Great point. Tomorrow is forecast for mid 30 kmh and higher winds, next day is 18's, next day is low teens.

networkn

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#902372 25-Sep-2013 12:22

Actually postponement is only 1 race right? They would still have to race the "second"?

networkn

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#902374 25-Sep-2013 12:26

It's hard not to consider the possibility of match fixing given the tremendous number of "errors" TNZ have made, stuff that isn't characteristic of ETNZ. I mean they have done some crazy dumb inexplicable things in the past few days. Not tacking with Oracle approaching the second marker, making a tack right before the third mark for no apparent reason.. I know it's not likely, but statistically the chances of a 8-2 comeback are something massive like 22000 to one someone said to me the other day.

dickytim

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#902376 25-Sep-2013 12:29

networkn: It's hard not to consider the possibility of match fixing given the tremendous number of "errors" TNZ have made, stuff that isn't characteristic of ETNZ. I mean they have done some crazy dumb inexplicable things in the past few days. Not tacking with Oracle approaching the second marker, making a tack right before the third mark for no apparent reason.. I know it's not likely, but statistically the chances of a 8-2 comeback are something massive like 22000 to one someone said to me the other day.

but who would benefit from such a rouse???

O ne

R ich

A merican (insert other A word if needed)

C alled

L arry

E llison

tdgeek

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#902379 25-Sep-2013 12:35

networkn: Actually postponement is only 1 race right? They would still have to race the "second"?

I assume if the race was postponed tomorrow due to winds we can still play the postponement card the next day. Oddly Barker was asked after the races today if he will postpone, he said no, maybe he knew he can grab two days off to plan

mattwnz

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#902421 25-Sep-2013 13:15

I think it is pretty much over, as even if a miracle happens and TNZ win tomorrow, which doesn't look likely, I think oracle are likely to win in the courts against those penalties. We really needed to beat them on the water, and oracle have won more races now on the water, so they deserve to win. The have the better boat that can foil faster, and they out sailed TNZ.
Funny how it all comes down to one race, as to the future of TNZ, and possibly NZs future in this rich mans game.

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langers1972

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#902535 25-Sep-2013 16:33

If, perish the thought, ETNZ don't bring it home tomorrow I hope that all Kiwi businesses uninstall all Oracle instances immediately as a show of support. We'll deal with the P1s on Friday after a suitable period of mourning!

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#902590 25-Sep-2013 18:29

I disagree. Boats are not the issue and while I hate the chokers label, I do feel it applies here . A defensive tack was yet another error . They delayed the matching tack and rolled past, another tactical error

Fred99

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#902666 25-Sep-2013 19:47

tdgeek: I disagree. Boats are not the issue and while I hate the chokers label, I do feel it applies here . A defensive tack was yet another error . They delayed the matching tack and rolled past, another tactical error

The "defensive tack" was the only viable option. ETNZ came around the bottom mark well ahead, OR followed. One very short beat and OR had climbed up and all over us - which was absolutely and indisputably from a huge advantage in boat speed. If ETNZ carried on without tacking in front, then next cross, OR would have had starboard (99% we would have been dead in the water - tacking in front of them was our only chance to defend - apart from praying to huey)
You can call it a "choke" or whatever if you don't like that term - but you're wrong. Race 2 today OR had a huge speed advantage - they gained over a minute on that upwind leg.
Too many armchair experts who have never been on the water (or went on a race as ballast once) making uninformed judgments and putting blame for this on NZ "choking".
It makes me ashamed to think of how DB and all the ETNZ crew might be treated "back home" if/when we lose this.

insane

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#902688 25-Sep-2013 19:59

I think ETNZ have done an amazing job to get this far

What's changed is the tactics of team Oracle, they are turning it into a straight line drag race, and like all american cars, they also go fast in a straight line.

How they manage to sail almost directly into the wind at times is beyond me though, but from the aerial view their sense of direction appears to follow a more logical path.

I think my work colleague got it right when I put a lot of money down on OR winning when ETNZ was still looking really good. No matter what happens tomorrow he's going to be feeling good.

itxtme

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#902697 25-Sep-2013 20:20

Fred99:
tdgeek: I disagree. Boats are not the issue and while I hate the chokers label, I do feel it applies here . A defensive tack was yet another error . They delayed the matching tack and rolled past, another tactical error

The "defensive tack" was the only viable option. ETNZ came around the bottom mark well ahead, OR followed. One very short beat and OR had climbed up and all over us - which was absolutely and indisputably from a huge advantage in boat speed. If ETNZ carried on without tacking in front, then next cross, OR would have had starboard (99% we would have been dead in the water - tacking in front of them was our only chance to defend - apart from praying to huey)
You can call it a "choke" or whatever if you don't like that term - but you're wrong. Race 2 today OR had a huge speed advantage - they gained over a minute on that upwind leg.
Too many armchair experts who have never been on the water (or went on a race as ballast once) making uninformed judgments and putting blame for this on NZ "choking".
It makes me ashamed to think of how DB and all the ETNZ crew might be treated "back home" if/when we lose this.

It was a mistake, the tack was early, he was too far to leeward of Oracle, he had to pinch to get up, and couldnt match the speed. I do race boats, and I agree the defensive tack was necessary BUT it was incorrectly positioned - mistake!

Fred99

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#902710 25-Sep-2013 20:51

itxtme:
Fred99:
tdgeek: I disagree. Boats are not the issue and while I hate the chokers label, I do feel it applies here . A defensive tack was yet another error . They delayed the matching tack and rolled past, another tactical error

The "defensive tack" was the only viable option. ETNZ came around the bottom mark well ahead, OR followed. One very short beat and OR had climbed up and all over us - which was absolutely and indisputably from a huge advantage in boat speed. If ETNZ carried on without tacking in front, then next cross, OR would have had starboard (99% we would have been dead in the water - tacking in front of them was our only chance to defend - apart from praying to huey)
You can call it a "choke" or whatever if you don't like that term - but you're wrong. Race 2 today OR had a huge speed advantage - they gained over a minute on that upwind leg.
Too many armchair experts who have never been on the water (or went on a race as ballast once) making uninformed judgments and putting blame for this on NZ "choking".
It makes me ashamed to think of how DB and all the ETNZ crew might be treated "back home" if/when we lose this.

It was a mistake, the tack was early, he was too far to leeward of Oracle, he had to pinch to get up, and couldnt match the speed. I do race boats, and I agree the defensive tack was necessary BUT it was incorrectly positioned - mistake!

Hmmm - retrospectively I suppose that if we'd managed to drop a tack back on to port on their nose but avoid a penalty, we might have gotten away with it. If we held on and tacked after the cross, OR just tack at the boundary and come back on starboard. But we lost due to boat speed. they made up their deficit in probably less than 1/10 of the leg, then waved bye bye.

From SA website:
"What won’t go away is the unbelievable speed advantage that Oracle has in around 18-22 knots. We aren’t sure we’ve ever seen a boat turn on the jets like Oracle did in race #2 today. A lot of people are saying the ETNZ blew it by trying to lee bow Oracle going upwind, but it didn’t matter what they did or where they tacked. There was simply no way to hold off a boat that had as much as a 4 knot edge in upwind speed at times!"

mattwnz

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#902713 25-Sep-2013 21:01

I think it is going to be quite a good spectacle tommorrow (if it goes ahead), as they have nothing to lose now. I don't think on a pure boats speed and crew work, that TNZ have much of a chance, so they really need to force them into some form of mistake. But even if TNZ do win, I fear we will lose it off teh water in teh courts anyway, so I would be planning for it to be held in NZ. Auckland ratepayers must be breathing a bit of a sign of relief.

networkn

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#902716 25-Sep-2013 21:32

Fred99:
tdgeek: I disagree. Boats are not the issue and while I hate the chokers label, I do feel it applies here . A defensive tack was yet another error . They delayed the matching tack and rolled past, another tactical error

The "defensive tack" was the only viable option. ETNZ came around the bottom mark well ahead, OR followed. One very short beat and OR had climbed up and all over us - which was absolutely and indisputably from a huge advantage in boat speed. If ETNZ carried on without tacking in front, then next cross, OR would have had starboard (99% we would have been dead in the water - tacking in front of them was our only chance to defend - apart from praying to huey)
You can call it a "choke" or whatever if you don't like that term - but you're wrong. Race 2 today OR had a huge speed advantage - they gained over a minute on that upwind leg.
Too many armchair experts who have never been on the water (or went on a race as ballast once) making uninformed judgments and putting blame for this on NZ "choking".
It makes me ashamed to think of how DB and all the ETNZ crew might be treated "back home" if/when we lose this.

ETNZ have made HUGE tactical errors by their OWN admission, or do you profess to know more than them? They have lost the start so many times. Things like having the code zero out when they shouldn't have and at LEAST a half dozen serious mistakes. Two penalties in the start box and DB admitting on multiple occasions he has been half asleep on the starts etc.

I'd like to know if you can tell me in race two today when they approached the third mark why they tacked again before rounding it? Neither sets of commentators (including the much more Knowledgeable American ones had the slightest idea.

As many of our losses in the last 6 races have been due to mistakes as much as Oracles superior boat speed etc..

Just for the record I am normally am extremely staunch when it comes to supporting our teams even when they lose, but to lose an advantage the size of the one we had against Oracle defies belief.

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