How long should what you say have consequences for?

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tdgeek

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#2617201 7-Dec-2020 08:23

MikeB4: @tdgeek I sorry you are completely wrong. I implore you to go and do some research. It was a dreadful display of racism made even worse as it was targeting children and saying to them that racism is ok. Please think about it more before posting clearly in support of racism. Go and look at other racist commercials like for example the disgusting soap adverts that sent the message that was so good it could clean the black skin of non white folk and make them white, again using children.

Please stop trying to justify racism and accept this was, is and will ever be wrong.

Dont you tell me I support racism. Do you have the same veracity for past cultures that performed atrocities and some that still do? Do you buy their goods and travel there? You support their atrocities both past and present? Maybe this is why we still have the issues we do. We can't learn from the past and move on as an improved race, so we continue to seek out discrimination in any form we possibly can. Instead of seeking equality now, we actively seek out past inequality. With that mindset, discrimination will always be front and centre, you will never get past that. Today is what matters as we continue to slowly make progress. I dont have a need to change the name of our volunteer ambulance service due to past atrocities the name was involved with, do you? I expect not as you are well aware of what that service represents, TODAY.

MikeB4

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#2617203 7-Dec-2020 08:29

You cannot get past what still exists. When folks attempt to justify the symbols of racism they are perpetuating racism.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

jonathan18

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#2617206 7-Dec-2020 08:32

tdgeek:

Dont you tell me I support racism. Do you have the same veracity for past cultures that performed atrocities and some that still do? Do you buy their goods and travel there? You support their atrocities both past and present? Maybe this is why we still have the issues we do. We can't learn from the past and move on as an improved race, so we continue to seek out discrimination in any form we possibly can. Instead of seeking equality now, we actively seek out past inequality. With that mindset, discrimination will always be front and centre, you will never get past that. Today is what matters as we continue to slowly make progress. I dont have a need to change the name of our volunteer ambulance service due to past atrocities the name was involved with, do you? I expect not as you are well aware of what that service represents, TODAY.

I understand, actually; my husband is Samoan, so talofa.

jonathan18

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#2617210 7-Dec-2020 08:47

tdgeek:

Dont you tell me I support racism. Do you have the same veracity for past cultures that performed atrocities and some that still do? Do you buy their goods and travel there? You support their atrocities both past and present? Maybe this is why we still have the issues we do. We can't learn from the past and move on as an improved race, so we continue to seek out discrimination in any form we possibly can. Instead of seeking equality now, we actively seek out past inequality. With that mindset, discrimination will always be front and centre, you will never get past that. Today is what matters as we continue to slowly make progress. I dont have a need to change the name of our volunteer ambulance service due to past atrocities the name was involved with, do you? I expect not as you are well aware of what that service represents, TODAY.

Do you really believe that perpetuating and condoning elements of history that are entirely racist in their origins is the way to ‘move on’?

This has so ended up in the same space as the “contemporary tv is so pc” thread, and like that one this reinforces my concern for future New Zealand. The good sign is that it appears a higher proportion of the younger generations have a better understanding so hopefully this mindset will become decreasingly dominant.

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#2617211 7-Dec-2020 08:48

MikeB4: You cannot get past what still exists. When folks attempt to justify the symbols of racism they are perpetuating racism.

You're twisting words. I can justify the symbols of the Crusaders Rugby team and St John Ambulance quite easily. Excellence, and Excellence and Care respectively. Because I live in today's world, these are today's context for these two examples. I am generally comfortable that we are making progress so that past historical facts are not today's facts, that's all that matters. Any form of discrimination. History cannot be changed, its recorded, only today can be changed. But if we need to ban everything we can start by a name change for our volunteer ambulance service, and the many other examples listed in the other thread, if we want to live in the past. Although most of us recognise that this one example has a today context. So its not supporting or justifying atrocities as you keep pointing out.

tdgeek

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#2617213 7-Dec-2020 08:56

jonathan18:

Do you really believe that perpetuating and condoning elements of history that are entirely racist in their origins is the way to ‘move on’?

This has so ended up in the same space as the “contemporary tv is so pc” thread, and like that one this reinforces my concern for future New Zealand. The good sign is that it appears a higher proportion of the younger generations have a better understanding so hopefully this mindset will become decreasingly dominant.

Do you believe that St John Ambulance needs a name change? Based on their name link to past atrocities? Are you aware of the Sino-Japanese war atrocities? China's current alleged atrocities? Do we hang onto those and castigate that? Or do we believe that we have moved on from those pasts, history is already written, but its better now and getting better?

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jonathan18

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#2617217 7-Dec-2020 09:01

Do I believe you just don’t get it? And that clearly you never will?
Yep.
I’m out.

MikeB4

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#2617218 7-Dec-2020 09:01

tdgeek:

MikeB4: You cannot get past what still exists. When folks attempt to justify the symbols of racism they are perpetuating racism.

You're twisting words. I can justify the symbols of the Crusaders Rugby team and St John Ambulance quite easily. Excellence, and Excellence and Care respectively. Because I live in today's world, these are today's context for these two examples. I am generally comfortable that we are making progress so that past historical facts are not today's facts, that's all that matters. Any form of discrimination. History cannot be changed, its recorded, only today can be changed. But if we need to ban everything we can start by a name change for our volunteer ambulance service, and the many other examples listed in the other thread, if we want to live in the past. Although most of us recognise that this one example has a today context. So its not supporting or justifying atrocities as you keep pointing out.

I am not twisting I am on the theme the YOU raised, the Golliwog not me. I was answering your very misguided view, I quote....

"Golliwogs got banned. Why? If anything they symbolised a multicultural world."

"Ban white dolls then, who have perpetrated racism against coloured people. What did the kids that grew up with golliwogs think of them? Toys"

You have tried a classic diversions away by raising the Crusaders and St John. You clearly shoed that you did not understand the background and the meaning of the Golliwog so therefore it was OK. It was not and never will be OK therefore my statement of "You cannot get past what still exists." contends we cannot get past the the circumstances the brought rise to such disgusting episodes like the Golliwog if the acceptance, lack of understanding still exists and that those attitudes still exists. The notion of "oh I have moved on so you should move" on is part of the attitude.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

tdgeek

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#2617220 7-Dec-2020 09:06

MikeB4:

I am not twisting I am on the theme the YOU raised, the Golliwog not me. I was answering you very misguided view, I quote....

"Golliwogs got banned. Why? If anything they symbolised a multicultural world."

"Ban white dolls then, who have perpetrated racism against coloured people. What did the kids that grew up with golliwogs think of them? Toys"

You have tried a classic diversions away by raising the Crusaders and St John. You clearly shoed that you did not understand the background and the meaning of the Golliwog so therefore it was OK. It was not and never will be OK therefore my statement of "You cannot get past what still exists." contends we cannot get past the the circumstances the brought rise to such disgusting episodes like the Golliwog if the acceptance, lack of understanding still exists and that those attitudes still exists. The notion of "oh I have moved on so you should move" on is part of the attitude.

No diversion. St John has part of their history that is atrocities. Same symbol I believe. Its a comparison, where no one believes St John represents that part of history, and therefore is not supporting or justifying it. Classic diversion? Why can't you answer why that is quite ok? But you want to bypass that.

tdgeek

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#2617222 7-Dec-2020 09:08

jonathan18: Do I believe you just don’t get it? And that clearly you never will?
Yep.
I’m out.

I get now that golliwogs are out, and that other atrocities and links, we can turn a blind eye to

I'm out too

networkn

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#2617226 7-Dec-2020 09:13

This thread is now miles off track, and on topic. Can one of the mods lock it please?

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MikeB4

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#2617232 7-Dec-2020 09:17

tdgeek:

No diversion. St John has part of their history that is atrocities. Same symbol I believe. Its a comparison, where no one believes St John represents that part of history, and therefore is not supporting or justifying it. Classic diversion? Why can't you answer why that is quite ok? But you want to bypass that.

Because you asked here we go. The Order of St John of Jerusalem should not run an ambulance service in Aotearoa. Wellington for example has the Free Ambulance service that is community run and funded. I believed and have lobbied that all ambulance services should run by and fully funded by government and structured as a division of the Fire Service. St John is not an organisation that should be involved and should not be in Aotearoa. If they accepted, apologised and atoned for their past my view my be slightly lighter.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

tdgeek

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#2617235 7-Dec-2020 09:27

MikeB4:

Because you asked here we go. The Order of St John of Jerusalem should not run an ambulance service in Aotearoa. Wellington for example has the Free Ambulance service that is community run and funded. I believed and have lobbied that all ambulance services should run by and fully funded by government and structured as a division of the Fire Service. St John is not an organisation that should be involved and should not be in Aotearoa. If they accepted, apologised and atoned for their past my view my be slightly lighter.

The issue is not financials or admin, its the name and the past links I queried. Its good that you can accept and apologies etc for that bad past. That is my point. Its past and bad, its not now. That's called progress, and history cannot be re written. That is doesnt get repeated is all that matters

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#2617297 7-Dec-2020 09:46

This argument is essentially the same as the one over confederate monuments in America. The symbols of the past can be and are used to perpetuate injustices of the present. It is better to move beyond those, even when many people don't know what their historical significance is. Think of it as a clean slate.

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