Should people like this be helped?

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#2087284 11-Sep-2018 09:17

MikeB4:

Who here can honestly say they read ALL the Terms and conditions of the likes of Insurance policies?

Who here can say they understand them?

Who here can say they understand the implications relating to them?

Who here can remember and document all the sore throats, stomach aches, aching back, head ache, sore leg,infected cut etc they have experienced in the last 5-10 years?

I generally use the "free" travel insurance that comes on my credit card:

https://media.kiwibank.co.nz/media/documents/Travel_Insurance_for_Kiwibank_Credit_Cards_Policy_Wording_Sept14.pdf

The policy wording is long but reasonably straightforward and they're very clear about not covering existing conditions. It's worth noting the cover limit for Bali is $100,000 which is not enough. If I was going there I'd arrange something extra.

I think anyone at GZ would be able to read and understand this. But the general population? Probably not.

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#2087291 11-Sep-2018 09:33

MikeB4:

[1] Who here can honestly say they read ALL the Terms and conditions of the likes of Insurance policies?

[2] Who here can say they understand them?

[3] Who here can say they understand the implications relating to them?

[4] Who here can remember and document all the sore throats, stomach aches, aching back, head ache, sore leg,infected cut etc they have experienced in the last 5-10 years?

(1) Yes

(2) Yes

(3) Yes

(4) No ... However, I can access my GP records online, so it's easy enough to check for things I may have forgotten that I reported to my GP. If it wasn't reported to a medical professional, and I can't remember it - it never happened.

Mike

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#2087302 11-Sep-2018 09:49

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

[1] Who here can honestly say they read ALL the Terms and conditions of the likes of Insurance policies?

[2] Who here can say they understand them?

[3] Who here can say they understand the implications relating to them?

[4] Who here can remember and document all the sore throats, stomach aches, aching back, head ache, sore leg,infected cut etc they have experienced in the last 5-10 years?

(1) Yes

(2) Yes

(3) Yes

(4) No ... However, I can access my GP records online, so it's easy enough to check for things I may have forgotten that I reported to my GP. If it wasn't reported to a medical professional, and I can't remember it - it never happened.

Plus I don't see the item [4] issues above as being a likely issue for an insurance claim. A pre-existing issue is only a pre-existing issue if it is known or ought to be known (from the policy I presented earlier). So you might have had a stomach ache 3 years ago but that doesn't mean you ought to have known you had a twisted bowel.

"Pre-existing medical
condition
means any physical defect, infirmity existing
or recurring illness, sickness, injury, disability
or condition:
(a) which you are aware of, or ought to have
been aware of; or
(b) for which advice, care, treatment,
medication or medical attention has been
sought, given or recommended; or
(c) which has been diagnosed as a medical
condition, or an illness or is indicative of
an illness; or
(d) which is of such a nature to require, or
which potentially may require medical
attention; or
(e) which is of such a nature as would have
caused a prudent, reasonable person to
seek medical attention;
prior to commencing travel."

That's pretty fair, commonsense stuff, I would have thought.

I disagree with Duncan Garner giving the PM a hard time about this on TV this morning. If an exception was made for this poor woman, then why not everyone else in her circumstances? Does Carner think the government wipe out travel insurance and just cover it under ACC?

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#2087305 11-Sep-2018 09:56

kiwiharry:

Batman:

Woman has died in Bali according to news.

FWIW I did a trial booking of Bali flights with Air NZ. There is ONE click box where it says if you buy travel insurance you're covered immediately. There is no line to declare any pre existing conditions. There is no warning, no request, in fact NO WAY to declare anything at time of purchase (not even a tick box). There is some vague mention about something about if you're under 65 being covered if you meet the terms and conditions. Doesn't explicitly say what they are. There is a very very small print of a link to the policy brochure. But that is about 10 times smaller font than the words that says covered immediately.

I'd put the blame right on the insurance company, the tick box, Air NZ.

You don't get away with these fine prints on a McDonald's ad or a telephone provider.

The "See what this policy covers" hyperlink is in the same font size as the text above and takes you to the pdf of the policy wording.

When you tick the box you are declaring that you agree to the terms and conditions. As with all insurance policies it is up to the person taking out the poilicy to read the policy wordng.

There is also a 14-day money back guarantee if you are unhappy with the T&C's.

I don't think the insurance company or Air NZ is to blame.

Ah I didn't see that light blue line.

Here's the policy wording under Existing Conditions for people who want to know

“Existing Medical Condition” means a disease, illness, medical or
dental condition or physical defect that at the Relevant Time meets any
one of the following:

a) has required an emergency department visit, hospitalisation or day
surgery procedure within the last two years;

b) requires
(i) prescription medication from a qualified medical practitioner or
dentist;
(ii) regular review or check-ups;
(iii) ongoing medication for treatment or risk factor control;
(iv) consultation with a specialist;

c) has
(i) been medically documented involving the brain, circulatory
system, heart, kidneys, liver, respiratory system or cancer;
(ii) required surgery involving the abdomen, back, joints or spine;
(iii) shown symptoms or signs however, a medical opinion or
investigation has not been sought to confirm or provide a
diagnosis; or

d) is
(i) chronic or ongoing (whether chronic or otherwise) and
medically documented;
(ii) under investigation;
(iii) pending diagnosis; or
(iv) pending test results.

“Relevant Time” means the time of issue of the policy.

If You are unsure whether You have an Existing Medical Condition,
please call Cover-More on 0800 500 248 for assistance.

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#2087306 11-Sep-2018 09:58

kryptonjohn:

I disagree with Duncan Garner giving the PM a hard time about this on TV this morning. If an exception was made for this poor woman, then why not everyone else in her circumstances? Does Carner think the government wipe out travel insurance and just cover it under ACC?

Agree.

"Ardern said this was not an isolated case. There are 3000 people seeking MFAT help and 280 medical emergency cases, she said."

I assume this number is more or less, at any time

MikeB4

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#2087307 11-Sep-2018 10:00

My condition started apparently with small rash on my upper arm that required no treatment at the time, five years later a fall blown flare up. A DNA marker was found during testing. This would be a pre-existing condition if the flare up occured while I was travelling and a claim declined.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#2087311 11-Sep-2018 10:02

kryptonjohn: Does Carner think the government wipe out travel insurance and just cover it under ACC?

Maybe he does; isn't that what a truly socialist government would do?

tdgeek

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#2087315 11-Sep-2018 10:06

jamesrt:

kryptonjohn: Does Carner think the government wipe out travel insurance and just cover it under ACC?

Maybe he does; isn't that what a truly socialist government would do?

Fortunately we don't have a socialist Govt, we have two parties who are centrist. Plus ACC was created for one specific reason, unrelated to socialist policies

kryptonjohn

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#2087317 11-Sep-2018 10:07

MikeB4:

My condition started apparently with small rash on my upper arm that required no treatment at the time, five years later a fall blown flare up. A DNA marker was found during testing. This would be a pre-existing condition if the flare up occured while I was travelling and a claim declined.

Not under two policy wordings already posted here (assuming the claim is for the subsequently discovered condition, not for a rash).

The "ought to have known" condition is not met. It became a *known* pre-existing condition at the 5 hear point you mentioned after the DNA test.

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#2087318 11-Sep-2018 10:09

Now presuming she didn't travel to Bali with a twisted bowel. As the media says she did not declare a bowel condition. May I remind you nowhere does it prompt you to declare anything other than taking your money. So non declaration is not an excuse for not paying.

Now I wonder what kind of things can lead to a twisted bowel. Presumably it was under some fancy clause. I still think the insurer needs to pay. But without actual details we will never know.

a) has required an emergency department visit, hospitalisation or day surgery procedure within the last two years;

b) requires
(i) prescription medication from a qualified medical practitioner or
dentist;
(ii) regular review or check-ups;
(iii) ongoing medication for treatment or risk factor control;
(iv) consultation with a specialist;

c) has
(i) been medically documented involving the brain, circulatory
system, heart, kidneys, liver, respiratory system or cancer;
(ii) required surgery involving the abdomen, back, joints or spine;
(iii) shown symptoms or signs however, a medical opinion or
investigation has not been sought to confirm or provide a
diagnosis; or

d) is
(i) chronic or ongoing (whether chronic or otherwise) and
medically documented;
(ii) under investigation;
(iii) pending diagnosis; or
(iv) pending test results.

Batman

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#2087323 11-Sep-2018 10:12

MikeB4:

My condition started apparently with small rash on my upper arm that required no treatment at the time, five years later a fall blown flare up. A DNA marker was found during testing. This would be a pre-existing condition if the flare up occured while I was travelling and a claim declined.

Really bad insurer this one. I am researching other insurers for my next trip. (not that I have ever considered the Air NZ one)

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kryptonjohn

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#2087324 11-Sep-2018 10:13

Batman:

Now presuming she didn't travel to Bali with a twisted bowel...

My understanding is that this was indeed a known pre-existing issue?

Batman

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#2087333 11-Sep-2018 10:22

kryptonjohn:

Batman:

Now presuming she didn't travel to Bali with a twisted bowel...

My understanding is that this was indeed a known pre-existing issue?

That's what the media is saying. It could be true. THere is indeed a condition called recurrent volvulus.

But I am guessing she probably has a hernia somewhere (very common) that did absolutely squat all for donkeys years and only gave problems (can sometimes happen with any hernia) when she was in Bali. If that's the case, then she does not have an existing twisted bowel, it only happened in Bali. If that is the case, yes you do see your GP/specialist every few years to look at the hernia because the public system will not operate on the hernia for years due to it being a very very low priority due to under funding.

But wihtout more information we will not know. It could well be something else entirely. But I'm picking on the word twisted bowel in the former paragraph, and the commonality of the hernia problem in the latter paragraph.

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#2087353 11-Sep-2018 10:44

kryptonjohn:

Batman:

Now presuming she didn't travel to Bali with a twisted bowel...

My understanding is that this was indeed a known pre-existing issue?

The reports I read said the twisted bowel was new and the procedure was covered. However she had a pre-existing condition with her breathing. This sadly lead to complications during the surgery. It was this further treatment which the insurance company wouldn't cover as it was caused by her pre-existing respiratory condition.

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#2087428 11-Sep-2018 11:24

MikeB4:

My condition started apparently with small rash on my upper arm that required no treatment at the time, five years later a fall blown flare up. A DNA marker was found during testing. This would be a pre-existing condition if the flare up occured while I was travelling and a claim declined.

Even if you had a more simple condition which resulted in a rash - say dermatitis - for which you'd received treatment, thus "pre-existing".

The policies don't just exclude treatment for the condition itself - say some steroid cream - but for other conditions resulting from the condition.

If you'd not disclosed that condition (which would be very easy to forget - usually it's "nothing much"), then you might be inclined to not worry - comforted somewhat by promises made by the insurer that while undisclosed pre-existing conditions wouldn't be covered, but after all it's only a tube of cheap steroid cream required.

Then you visit a tropical country, the dermatitis you'd forgotten about flares up, you get an AB resistant infection in the compromised skin - that turns nasty, you end up with sepsis as this unfortunate woman did, cost is hundreds of thousands of $$$ in bills, then you die.

They could deny a claim. Would they? I don't know.

It's very unlikely - but isn't that what we buy insurance for - unlikely events?

It seems that there's no factual information on exactly what happened to this woman, re what she should have disclosed. I'd understood it as that she'd not disclosed having problems with a twisted bowel. The twisted bowel obstruction didn't kill her, sepsis did.

Some very harsh assumptions made by some posters, seemingly based on the belief that she was deliberately trying to cheat the system.

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