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Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 151191 17-Aug-2014 08:38
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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 1109785 17-Aug-2014 08:53
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Bringing back some stuff from 2011?

Sure, there was no "hacking" (if you define hacking as using exploits, social engineering) back then as because of a badly configured web server some content was visible in plain sight. But was it ok to grab it?

If you leave your house unlocked and someone walks in, is it ok for your TV to be gone?

My comment is not specifically aimed at WhaleOil but it is a general question. If YOU go to a website and by chance it's not serving the pages but showing a directory would you grab credit card numbers if available and start using them?

Also perhaps this video would be better posted in the Dirty Politics book discussion going on now?






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  Reply # 1109788 17-Aug-2014 09:06
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I wasn't around when the news broke back in 2011, and I fully understand the 'you leave your back door open and someone comes in etc etc'
I'm talking purely about the reports the site was 'hacked' in the media at the moment.

When I heard recently the Labour site was 'hacked' into, I was expecting a full scale hacking/brute force elaborate type attempt, but that's nothing, as you mentioned badly configured web server.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1109805 17-Aug-2014 09:55
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Interesting analogies MF. I would like to know an insurance company's response when you made a claim for the missing TV if you admitted you left the house unlocked, and the credit card one becomes fraud when you use the information gained for personal gain.
Just another example of the brave new world that is the internet, and the difficulty lawmakers have keeping up.




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  Reply # 1109829 17-Aug-2014 10:52
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I dont really think that is comparative MF.  Now if you invited people in say for an open home and left your private documents on the counter top and they read them did they do anything wrong?

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  Reply # 1109855 17-Aug-2014 11:40
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Reading is one thing, using the knowledge is a different thing.
One could have a word in private to warn of the problem. In the industry it is called Responsible Disclosure.




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  Reply # 1109864 17-Aug-2014 11:56
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freitasm: Bringing back some stuff from 2011?

Sure, there was no "hacking" (whatever is the definition you have) back then as because of a badly configured web server some content was visible in plain sight. But was it ok to grab it?

If you leave your house unlocked and someone walks in, is it ok for your TV to be gone?

My comment is not specifically aimed at WhaleOil but it is a general question. If YOU go to a website and by chance it's not serving the pages but showing a directory would you grab credit card numbers if available and start using them?

Also perhaps this video would be better posted in the Dirty Politics book discussion going on now?


Not sure I agree with your analogy.

This is more like inviting stacks of people into your home, and leaving your nudey wife photo album on the bookshelf.
There is a reasonable chance someone will look, and it's your own fault for leaving it there.

Should they take copies, no. But they probably will.




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  Reply # 1109874 17-Aug-2014 12:08
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andrewNZ:
freitasm: Bringing back some stuff from 2011?

Sure, there was no "hacking" (whatever is the definition you have) back then as because of a badly configured web server some content was visible in plain sight. But was it ok to grab it?

If you leave your house unlocked and someone walks in, is it ok for your TV to be gone?

My comment is not specifically aimed at WhaleOil but it is a general question. If YOU go to a website and by chance it's not serving the pages but showing a directory would you grab credit card numbers if available and start using them?

Also perhaps this video would be better posted in the Dirty Politics book discussion going on now?


Not sure I agree with your analogy.

This is more like inviting stacks of people into your home, and leaving your nudey wife photo album on the bookshelf.
There is a reasonable chance someone will look, and it's your own fault for leaving it there.

Should they take copies, no. But they probably will.


I think that was mainly MF's point. People can see the "image", but taking the image from that house would be wrong. Someone walks into your house and sees your TV is probably okay (depends on how they got in as well), but taking it away from the house without permission is wrong. If you see a list of credit card numbers in a house, yes you saw it. But taking the credit card numbers and using it yourself would be wrong. It's a matter of right and wrong here.




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  Reply # 1109876 17-Aug-2014 12:11
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Dingbatt: Interesting analogies MF. I would like to know an insurance company's response when you made a claim for the missing TV if you admitted you left the house unlocked, and the credit card one becomes fraud when you use the information gained for personal gain.
Just another example of the brave new world that is the internet, and the difficulty lawmakers have keeping up.


An insurance company's response and the etiquette that we are talking about here is a completely different story..




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  Reply # 1109898 17-Aug-2014 12:39
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sonyxperiageek:
Dingbatt: Interesting analogies MF. I would like to know an insurance company's response when you made a claim for the missing TV if you admitted you left the house unlocked, and the credit card one becomes fraud when you use the information gained for personal gain.
Just another example of the brave new world that is the internet, and the difficulty lawmakers have keeping up.


An insurance company's response and the etiquette that we are talking about here is a completely different story..


No, my point was one of due care, or lack of.




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  Reply # 1109903 17-Aug-2014 13:03
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I think that the topic was a question as to whether it was hacking, to me it isn't, unlike the data used to write the book, back on topic the term is being misused to glam it up more.




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  Reply # 1109918 17-Aug-2014 13:54
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freitasm: Reading is one thing, using the knowledge is a different thing.
One could have a word in private to warn of the problem. In the industry it is called Responsible Disclosure.


An excellent example of this is "private" radio transmissions, i.e. the likes of older cellphone tech, CB radios, police radios.
It was not illegal to listen to it, it was however illegal to make use of that information.

Also applies to emails that are incorrectly addressed.

This all reminds me of people and wallets
The Same group who believe in "Finders Keepers" will be the first to complain of some theiving Bastard stealing their money
when their wallet gets lost.

The people I have respect for are ones whose marl stance is not up for sale, i.e. they will hold the same stance when they win as when they loose.
i.e. if you are willing to complain when a shop short changes you, be equally quick to complain when they give you too much change, my experience is people like this are the ones to trust, but they are rare.

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  Reply # 1109924 17-Aug-2014 14:01
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freitasm: Bringing back some stuff from 2011?

Sure, there was no "hacking" (whatever is the definition you have) back then as because of a badly configured web server some content was visible in plain sight. But was it ok to grab it?

If you leave your house unlocked and someone walks in, is it ok for your TV to be gone?

My comment is not specifically aimed at WhaleOil but it is a general question. If YOU go to a website and by chance it's not serving the pages but showing a directory would you grab credit card numbers if available and start using them?

Also perhaps this video would be better posted in the Dirty Politics book discussion going on now?


But its OK to make money off a book from content that was actually hacked and stolen?







gzt

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  Reply # 1109925 17-Aug-2014 14:07
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CB_24: It was hardly 'hacking' was it?

It is not hacking unless there was a previous attack on the security permissions. Labour use of the 'H' word is just silly.

However, I do agree with the use of the word 'intrusion' if it used to describe the privacy context. The membership data and credit card donation data was private to the people that provided it and should not be used for any other purpose. If that occurred it is very bad.

There are other aspects also which seem more relevant to the overall Hager book topic so I posted them over there.

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  Reply # 1109938 17-Aug-2014 14:31
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If you are stupid enough to leave something configured in such a way that it can be indexed by google, and crawled by the wayback machine, it's not a hack, or an intrusion. I strongly dislike Whaleoil but Labour was criminally incompetent here.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110611064650/http://healthyhomeshealthykiwis.org.nz/production/sites/drupal_labour/current/files/





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  Reply # 1109941 17-Aug-2014 14:34
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it would be interesting to see the replies on this if it was the other way round and the Labour party had done similar, maybe the comments are more based on political leanings, just saying cool




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