Military Presence in Europe

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thecatsgoolies

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#204463 2-Oct-2016 19:35

For the past few days I have been travelling through europe, mostly France Belgium and such, and to see the large military presence has certainly been thought provoking.

In France in particular, you couldn't move without bumping into a semi-automatic rifle (slight exaggeration but you get the picture). I haven't been to Europe in over 25 years and to see the army everywhere was quite sad. The need for them to protect is obvious. Talking to the locals, they shrug their shoulders while admitting it's sad but it's how it is now and how it has to be. They are constantly on terror alert and looking over their shoulders.

In Brussels, army were camped outside the train station. I felt pretty safe but it is a sad reflection on how time's are changing and the invisible terror no longer comes from countries with the threat of nuclear bombs but from strangers who have the belief what they are doing is for the good of their God :-(

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ScuL

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#1644383 2-Oct-2016 20:42

It's been like this for about 5 years, but certainly intensified the last 2 years. It supported our decision to move to NZ and move away from potential danger.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

shk292

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#1644384 2-Oct-2016 20:45

Yep, it's a sad fact of life that there are millions of people out there who would like to deprive us of our liberal western lifestyle and are happy to kill randomly to achieve their goal.

That's why I can't understand the EU "open borders" thing and think Brexit was a good idea

Lostja

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#1644401 2-Oct-2016 21:40

shk292:
Yep, it's a sad fact of life that there are millions of people out there who would like to deprive us of our liberal western lifestyle and are happy to kill randomly to achieve their goal.

That's why I can't understand the EU "open borders" thing and think Brexit was a good idea

Even with closed borders and later on with a much smaller EU it wasn't all roses and sunshine with para military groups such as ETA and RAF and others causing trouble in Spain, France, Greece, Germany. I remember traveling through Paris in the 90s with armed forces on train stations and not a rubbish bin in sight because they had all been removed for fear of bomb attacks

gzt

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#1644409 2-Oct-2016 21:50

shk292:
Yep, it's a sad fact of life that there are millions of people out there who would like to deprive us of our liberal western lifestyle and are happy to kill randomly to achieve their goal.

That's why I can't understand the EU "open borders" thing and think Brexit was a good idea

Millions? I can't really see it.

Geektastic

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#1644410 2-Oct-2016 21:56

I remember landing at LHR and finding LAV's on the runway one year. That was a bit sobering.

Geektastic

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#1644412 2-Oct-2016 22:02

Lostja:
shk292:

Yep, it's a sad fact of life that there are millions of people out there who would like to deprive us of our liberal western lifestyle and are happy to kill randomly to achieve their goal.

That's why I can't understand the EU "open borders" thing and think Brexit was a good idea

Even with closed borders and later on with a much smaller EU it wasn't all roses and sunshine with para military groups such as ETA and RAF and others causing trouble in Spain, France, Greece, Germany. I remember traveling through Paris in the 90s with armed forces on train stations and not a rubbish bin in sight because they had all been removed for fear of bomb attacks

Yes, that's true. When I was working at the MoD we had standing orders that serving personnel were not to travel in visible uniforms when not on official duty. When PIRA blew up the Royal Marines barracks in Deal, I came in to work to find sandbags round the buildings and armed soldiers on the doors. One of my jobs shortly thereafter was having ballistic film and curtains applied to all our office windows just in case a car bomb etc was detonated outside.

The EU has always had a few crazies - the Basques, Bader Meinhoff and so forth - but it certainly is a lot worse now and Mrs Merkel is fairly unpopular in her own country just now, never mind in the countries who have to deal with the consequences of her actions despite never being consulted.

ScuL

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#1644804 3-Oct-2016 16:28

shk292:

That's why I can't understand the EU "open borders" thing and think Brexit was a good idea

That statement contradicts itself.

The UK always had an opt-out of the Schengen treaty and was therefore never subjected to open borders.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

Geektastic

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#1644821 3-Oct-2016 17:22

ScuL:

shk292:

That's why I can't understand the EU "open borders" thing and think Brexit was a good idea

That statement contradicts itself.

The UK always had an opt-out of the Schengen treaty and was therefore never subjected to open borders.

Sort of.

What the open borders idea achieved was removing any barriers to asylum seekers and illegal migrants heading for the UK once they entered Schengen and because of the EU pressure could be (and has been) brought to bear on the UK to accept these people.

It is supposed to be an accepted practice in Europe that refugees and so on are expected to stop and lodge their paperwork in the first safe country they enter - and there are an awful lot of those between the UK and the typical entry points of the migrants.

The feeling that continental EU countries were happy to forward migrants to the UK ASAP is a big driver for the Brexit vote.

The UK technically never had open borders, but I entered France from the UK many times and simply rolled off the ferry and hit the road - no one was even manning the immigration booths - so clearly France had unofficially extended open borders to the UK (although with recent events, that may not now be so, of course).

shk292

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#1644824 3-Oct-2016 17:31

ScuL:

That statement contradicts itself.

The UK always had an opt-out of the Schengen treaty and was therefore never subjected to open borders.

Opting out of Schengen doesn't mean UK has any control over its borders, it just means you need to present a passport to cross the UK border. Any EU citizen has the right to live and work in any EU nation - mational borders are secondary to the EU freedom of movement. So, if Saint Angela decides to offer German Citizenship to a million migrants on Monday, they are all quite entitled to move to the UK on Tuesday.

Thankfully, Theresa May has grasped the UK majority's opposition to the concept and has decided that Brexit means Brexit and that there are no foregone conclusions around freedom of movement when it comes to post-EU UK.

ScuL

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#1645072 4-Oct-2016 10:07

shk292:

Opting out of Schengen doesn't mean UK has any control over its borders, it just means you need to present a passport to cross the UK border.

That's another contradiction. It means exactly that. If you need to present a passport to pass the border you have control over your border.

Any EU citizen has the right to live and work in any EU nation - mational borders are secondary to the EU freedom of movement.

That's a different subject and totally unrelated to Schengen.

So, if Saint Angela decides to offer German Citizenship to a million migrants on Monday, they are all quite entitled to move to the UK on Tuesday.

This is 100% untrue. Refugees in Germany do not get citizenship nor any EU membership rights.

Thankfully, Theresa May has grasped the UK majority's opposition to the concept and has decided that Brexit means Brexit and that there are no foregone conclusions around freedom of movement when it comes to post-EU UK.

May is merely executing policy, she is personally opposed to Brexit. There are still many hurdles to be taken before the UK could leave and if it did leave it would lead to the self-destruction of the UK.

What the open borders idea achieved was removing any barriers to asylum seekers and illegal migrants heading for the UK once they entered Schengen and because of the EU pressure could be (and has been) brought to bear on the UK to accept these people.

It is supposed to be an accepted practice in Europe that refugees and so on are expected to stop and lodge their paperwork in the first safe country they enter - and there are an awful lot of those between the UK and the typical entry points of the migrants.

I 100% agree with the fact that refugees are abusing the system by moving from country to country until they reach their country of preference. This should be stopped with a common intra-European policy. However such a policy makes little sense if one of Europe's biggest economies refuses to support it. It should also be noted that the outer borders of the Schengen zone are very poorly policed and the UK could have made a highly significant contribution to protecting its interests and those of its allies.

The feeling that continental EU countries were happy to forward migrants to the UK ASAP is a big driver for the Brexit vote.

It's certainly part of the reason but it's more than likely that austerity and the poor state "up north" have led to this protest vote. There are still many cases of Bregret now that the consequences have become transparent and the biggest Brexit pushers have all jumped ship.

The UK technically never had open borders, but I entered France from the UK many times and simply rolled off the ferry and hit the road - no one was even manning the immigration booths - so clearly France had unofficially extended open borders to the UK (although with recent events, that may not now be so, of course).

Outward from the UK into France, yes. As France doesn't mind people coming in from the UK. I can guarantee you that attempting to enter the UK from France is impossible without a chat to the always friendly chaps of Her Majesty's Border Agency.

We're heavily tracking away from the original subject though. I personally believe that both the UK and Germany are equally as much on the path of self-destruction. UK for economic self-sabotage and Germany for putting astronomical strain on its social services due to soaking up far too many people who can barely contribute. This has fragmented European politics and with the terrorist threats caused by the instability in the Middle East are the perfect ingredients for increased safety concerns, hence the military presence at hot spots.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

Kezz0r

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#1645539 5-Oct-2016 03:34

Currently traveling through Italy, and every touristic spot we've come to so far has been teaming with Municipal Police, Carabinieri, and military personnel and vehicles sign written with a Safe Streets Project logo - my guess was to protect their tourist income collateral, but as my travel beard is getting pretty full on and the only hat that fits my large noggin makes me look like a communist, I've had a few long stares from the lads with the semi autos a couple of times now hah

frankv

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#1645649 5-Oct-2016 09:08

Kezz0r:the only hat that fits my large noggin makes me look like a communist

Mao cap? Russian mouton ushanka fur hat? Fidel beret? Kim Jong Il wig? Chapeau Albanois? Budenovka? Obamao?

Photo please!

Geektastic

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#1645671 5-Oct-2016 09:34

Kezz0r: Currently traveling through Italy, and every touristic spot we've come to so far has been teaming with Municipal Police, Carabinieri, and military personnel and vehicles sign written with a Safe Streets Project logo - my guess was to protect their tourist income collateral, but as my travel beard is getting pretty full on and the only hat that fits my large noggin makes me look like a communist, I've had a few long stares from the lads with the semi autos a couple of times now hah

Reminds me of a time long long ago when I was returning from 3 weeks mountaineering in the Alps in France.

As a student type, we used the coach service from Victoria Station in London to Chamonix return.

We boarded the coach in the Place Du Mont Blanc in Chamonix and there was a very scruffy hippy-type rock climber (they're a breed, honest!) and we joked about how the Swiss border police would view him when the coach crossed into Switzerland to stop in Geneva.

We arrive at the border and the usual immaculate Swiss policeman gets onto the coach and begins moving down the aisle, checking passports. He looks up when he is half way down and sees the scruffy herbert with dreadlocks on the back seat alone. He hands back the passport in his hand, ignores the remaining passengers and points at the guy and says in a no-nonsense tone "Avec moi!"

The guy gets off the coach and disappears with the policeman. 10 minutes later, the driver is made to open the luggage compartment and remove the rucksack and climbing gear belonging to the hippy guy.

5 minutes later, the policeman reappears and tells the driver he can go - we never see the scruffy guy again...!

So, trim that beard....!

jpoc

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#1648838 10-Oct-2016 23:17

Geektastic:

What the open borders idea achieved was removing any barriers to asylum seekers and illegal migrants heading for the UK once they entered Schengen and because of the EU pressure could be (and has been) brought to bear on the UK to accept these people.

It is supposed to be an accepted practice in Europe that refugees and so on are expected to stop and lodge their paperwork in the first safe country they enter - and there are an awful lot of those between the UK and the typical entry points of the migrants.

The feeling that continental EU countries were happy to forward migrants to the UK ASAP is a big driver for the Brexit vote.

The UK technically never had open borders, but I entered France from the UK many times and simply rolled off the ferry and hit the road - no one was even manning the immigration booths - so clearly France had unofficially extended open borders to the UK (although with recent events, that may not now be so, of course).

OK, so here is my question:

Why is it that so very many migrants - asylum seekers, refugees, economic migrants etc - all seem to have set out to get to the UK even though once they got into the Schengen zone they could travel just about anywhere but the UK with ease?

The British government made it much easier for an illegal migrant to live and prosper in the UK than in France, Germany etc. That was clear government policy and in 2006, when a British government tried to do something to change that, there was an outcry and the people would not accept it. They would rather face the migrant pressure. Then when the migrant pressure became too much they decided to leave the EU - essentially, they chose that rather than to have ID cards and register where they lived with the authorities. Dumb as.