CGA - defining "reasonable" with reference to other markets

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Geektastic

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#255793 30-Aug-2019 10:07

I was musing on this.

I recently needed some binoculars. The three brands that I looked at were Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski. The warranty on all of them is 10 years.

However...in the USA, the warranty on the same (exactly the same) models is lifetime.

Hypothetically, if you had a problem in 20 years time and they refused repair under warranty in NZ, could you argue in the dispute resolution process that the companies clearly accepted that a lifetime warranty was "reasonable" because that was exactly what they offered on identical products in the USA?

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#2308289 30-Aug-2019 10:13

Floyd's opinion:

Yes, you could argue it. Not sure if you'd win your case though, probably depends on the fault somewhat as well.

I quite like the tangible nature of 10 years. Lifetime raises that ambiguity that they could argue is the 'life' of the product rather than the owner.

Sometimes I use big words I don't always fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

BlinkyBill

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#2308308 30-Aug-2019 10:43

Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

throbb

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#2308323 30-Aug-2019 11:04

I think you'll find that a Lifetime warranty is based on the Lifetime of the product, which they probably define as 10 years.

Bung

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#2308325 30-Aug-2019 11:07

IANAL but doesn't CGA trump warranty unless warranty period was reasonable considering life of product?

The Zeiss "Lifetime" warranty has usual exclusions for consumable parts (most bits on the outside) and could be subject to regular servicing being carried out. Good luck complaining that the optics had mildewed if the seals had never been replaced.

eracode

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#2308332 30-Aug-2019 11:14

BlinkyBill: Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

Not necessarily. If they’re bought in NZ, the governing legislation is the CGA. If someone adjudicating on the CGA determines that a reasonable life for a pair of binoculars is, say, 15 years, that overrides the manufacturer’s warranty.

Edit: Posted this before I saw @Bung ‘s post.

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Lias

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#2308427 30-Aug-2019 12:42

The CGA very much trumps any manufacturer warranty, but most suppliers and retailers of well.. anything.. like to pretend otherwise.

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BlinkyBill

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#2308447 30-Aug-2019 13:20

eracode:
BlinkyBill: Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

Not necessarily. If they’re bought in NZ, the governing legislation is the CGA. If someone adjudicating on the CGA determines that a reasonable life for a pair of binoculars is, say, 15 years, that overrides the manufacturer’s warranty.

Edit: Posted this before I saw @Bung ‘s post.

The question I answered was relative to using a foreign warranty clause as an argument in a domestic warranty claim. I wasn’t addressing whether the CGA applied or not.

A CGA claim is not the same as a warranty claim.

Geektastic

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#2308552 30-Aug-2019 16:55

BlinkyBill: Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

It's not really a genuine contract because there were no bona fide negotiations.

If they offered you price $X and 10 years or price $Y and 20 years etc I would agree with you. You'd be stuck with what you chose to accept.

Geektastic

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#2308554 30-Aug-2019 16:59

eracode:
BlinkyBill: Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

Not necessarily. If they’re bought in NZ, the governing legislation is the CGA. If someone adjudicating on the CGA determines that a reasonable life for a pair of binoculars is, say, 15 years, that overrides the manufacturer’s warranty.

Edit: Posted this before I saw @Bung ‘s post.

This is kind of what I was getting at.

If you take a claim under the CGA - which I do not believe would be time restricted by the manufacturer's stated length of warranty - it would surely be a very persuasive argument to state that the warranty is lifetime for an identical product in another market and NZ consumers were just being offered a less good warranty for no reason. Identical binoculars (or anything else) are no less likely to develop a manufacturing fault in one country over another.

The warranty is even transferable to subsequent owners in the USA.

eracode

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#2308599 30-Aug-2019 18:41

@Geektastic Yep I think we’re on the same wavelength and IMO your logic is good. If you made a CGA claim, for binoculars bought in NZ after the manufacturer’s 10 years had elapsed, the fact that they offered a lifetime warranty overseas would be relevant - and the 10 years would be overruled if the expected life of those binoculars in NZ was longer than 10 years. CGA rules.

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pctek

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#2308612 30-Aug-2019 19:24

Geektastic:The warranty on all of them is 10 years.

However...in the USA, the warranty on the same (exactly the same) models is lifetime.

Thank you for purchasing this instrument and welcome to the world of SWAROVSKI OPTIK.

SWAROVSKI OPTIK warrants all other parts of the instrument for ten years from date of purchase against defects in materials or workmanship, subject to normal use. All electronic components are warranted for two years against defects in materials and workmanship, subject to normal use, from date of purchase. All non-optical products (i.e. accessories, tripods etc.) are warranted for twoyearsfrom date of purchase.

so, you are aware that "lifetime" is lifetime of product, not yours?
It's kind of meaningless, as above, they have made the lifetime 10 years, or 2 years, or whatever.

This is the US small print.

All companies do this.

And in any case, in NZ, CGA takes precedence. You can't do it with an overseas company, but you can with the retailer in NZ.

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blackjack17

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#2308636 30-Aug-2019 20:47

Osprey offer a lifetime guarantee. Have tested it and they do replace if they can't repair (water proofing was coming off).

https://www.osprey.com/us/en/customer-support/all-mighty-guarantee

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Handle9

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#2308667 30-Aug-2019 23:38

Geektastic:
BlinkyBill: Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

It's not really a genuine contract because there were no bona fide negotiations.

If they offered you price $X and 10 years or price $Y and 20 years etc I would agree with you. You'd be stuck with what you chose to accept.

Of course it's a contract - there is offer, acceptable and consideration. There is no legal requirement for negotiation for a contract to be valid.

eracode

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#2308674 31-Aug-2019 02:42

Handle9:
Geektastic:

BlinkyBill: Since the warranty is 10 years, you wouldn’t be able to submit a warranty claim in 20 years, so there is nothing to argue - the contract you entered into is for 10 years.

If the item failed in the 20 year timeframe and you took an action because you feel it shouldn’t have failed and therefore the manufacturer should repair at their cost, then yes it’s an argument that a lifetime warranty for the same product in a different market has a bearing.

But that argument wouldn’t have much weight in NZ - the contract you agreed to in NZ will have a much higher weighting in terms of the overall argument.

It's not really a genuine contract because there were no bona fide negotiations.

If they offered you price $X and 10 years or price $Y and 20 years etc I would agree with you. You'd be stuck with what you chose to accept.

Of course it's a contract - there is offer, acceptable and consideration. There is no legal requirement for negotiation for a contract to be valid.

Yes, it’s a contract because those criteria have been met - but the 10-year warranty part of the terms of the contract could be set-aside by the CGA if it was determined that the reasonable life of a pair of binoculars is longer than 10 years.

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Handle9

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#2308675 31-Aug-2019 02:54

eracode:
Handle9:
Of course it's a contract - there is offer, acceptable and consideration. There is no legal requirement for negotiation for a contract to be valid.

Yes, it’s a contract because those criteria have been met - but the 10-year warranty part of the terms of the contract could be set-aside by the CGA if it was determined that the reasonable life of a pair of binoculars is longer than 10 years.

Sure but regardless of that it's still a contract. The CGA can set aside the warranty provision if it's relevant but the point was the absence of negotiation isn't relevant as to whether it's a contract or not.

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