Quotes, Estimates etc

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Geektastic

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#257415 1-Oct-2019 16:37

OK so here is a question about what may be a NZ vs UK interpretation issue or may just be a local thing round here - not sure.

1) In my view, a quote is a specific statement as to how much someone will charge to do the job and isn't variable

2) An estimate is what it says it is and might vary

and related

If you approach a specialist company to do something you have no knowledge of and ask them to make a recommendation and quote for that, then you ask them to do what they specify and then their recommendation turns out to be inadequate, requiring further cost to be incurred to arrive at the desired outcome, that extra work ought to be at their cost not the clients since they made the error in specifying the job.

Thoughts?

Handle9

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#2327869 1-Oct-2019 16:59

In concept what you are saying is correct but as always the devil is in the detail. You're going to have to be much more specific about what your issue is to get a meaningful response.

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Geektastic

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#2327964 1-Oct-2019 19:05

The only specific issue that brought it to mind was out gates.

Mainly I've just seen a great many 'quotes' that are in actuality misnamed estimates by the time the job is underway.

Regarding gates, we asked for a recommendation that was then installed. Turned out solar power wasn't adequate unless the sun was out. Removed solar, installed mains then billed us $1200 for installing mains.

My view is that cost is theirs not mine. They ought to have known solar wouldn't work and not suggested it.

Handle9

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#2327976 1-Oct-2019 19:41

Geektastic: The only specific issue that brought it to mind was out gates.

Mainly I've just seen a great many 'quotes' that are in actuality misnamed estimates by the time the job is underway.

Regarding gates, we asked for a recommendation that was then installed. Turned out solar power wasn't adequate unless the sun was out. Removed solar, installed mains then billed us $1200 for installing mains.

My view is that cost is theirs not mine. They ought to have known solar wouldn't work and not suggested it.

If solar wasn't fit for purpose then IMO you would have a case. A lot depends on the way you word a quote. As a consumer you have a lot more protection than a commercial customer as you have the CGA.

The more detailed the breakdown on the quote the easier it is to wriggle out of. When you sign a commercial construction contract the main contractor will want no detail just that you have allowed for scope. The contractor will want to put lots of detail in so they can claim for variations. The balance needs to be there somewhere in the middle, in line with the risk and profit balance.

One of the key things to do when accepting a quote is to clarify what happens when things go wrong. There is the law and then there's what actually happens. These are not necessarily the same and some simple questions like "have you allowed for everything you need to make this work?"and "can you confirm that there will be no additional costs to me if this doesn't work" are always helpful later on. It removes all wriggle room.

Something like solar is really site dependent so there could be some wriggle room but we were taught in contract management (for construction) that the "reasonable man test" would cover unforeseen events if it wasn't specifically covered in writing. What the heck is reasonable changes day by day so it's always better to clarify and ask lots of questions prior to accepting the quote.

MurrayM

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#2328245 2-Oct-2019 08:24

IMHO too many companies call them quotes when in fact what they're giving you is an estimate. I always ask them if the price is fixed in stone and the usual answer is "Oh no, we might need to charge more if we encounter unforseen problems", to which my answer is "Well it's not a quote then, it's an estimate".

sen8or

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#2328248 2-Oct-2019 08:35

Solar power for a gate motor? I wouldn't think that would be anywhere close to sufficient. Solar power to power the input to the motor perhaps (usually 12 or 24v coming from an alarm controller, expander or something similar like a card reader / keypad), but the actual motor itself would require some decent power to move the gates.

Our quotes usually tag out things that we haven't allowed for or seen in the spec / contract, things like "we have not allowed power connection to the alarm panel", or "we have allowed low voltage power to the controller only" or something similar to that, so its clear what is and isn't allowed for.

One question is though, if they had said at the outset that it may require mains power, and the cost would be $1200, would you still have gone with the job / company? You may not be any worse off than what you would have been if appropriate allowances had been made, so some give and take may be in order.

1cloud

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#2328249 2-Oct-2019 08:37

MurrayM:

IMHO too many companies call them quotes when in fact what they're giving you is an estimate.".

exactly

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#2328254 2-Oct-2019 08:45

https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/help-product-service/home-renovation-repair/estimates-quotes/

An estimate is not a set price. An estimate is roughly how much the contractor thinks the job will cost, based on skill and past experience.

An estimate can be verbal or in writing — there's no legal difference between a written or verbal estimate. It's a best guess. The actual price may be more or less, but it is commonly expected that it should be within 10 to 15 percent of the final cost.

A quote is an offer to do a job for an exact price. Once you accept a quote, the contractor can’t charge you more than the agreed price unless you agree to extra work, or the scope of the job changes while it is underway. Legally, this is known as a variation to your contract.

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Geektastic

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#2328286 2-Oct-2019 09:05

xpd:
https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/help-product-service/home-renovation-repair/estimates-quotes/

An estimate is not a set price. An estimate is roughly how much the contractor thinks the job will cost, based on skill and past experience.

An estimate can be verbal or in writing — there's no legal difference between a written or verbal estimate. It's a best guess. The actual price may be more or less, but it is commonly expected that it should be within 10 to 15 percent of the final cost.

A quote is an offer to do a job for an exact price. Once you accept a quote, the contractor can’t charge you more than the agreed price unless you agree to extra work, or the scope of the job changes while it is underway. Legally, this is known as a variation to your contract.

My interpretation would concur.

However, the grey area is if the work has to change because the contractor advised x as the solution but x is not a functioning solution so y had to be done instead.

Jase2985

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#2328546 2-Oct-2019 15:55

what the solar should have been doing is charging a battery (12 or 24v) and then that would be powering the gate. battery should be good for 10's of openings before going flat if there was no sun.

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#2328563 2-Oct-2019 16:20

1cloud:

MurrayM:

IMHO too many companies call them quotes when in fact what they're giving you is an estimate.".

exactly

Many companies I have found no longer give quotes, but call them estimates instead. I recall reading somewhere that it is reasonable for estimates to be within 15% of the final price, unless they notify you differently.

Handle9

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#2328568 2-Oct-2019 16:26

MurrayM:
IMHO too many companies call them quotes when in fact what they're giving you is an estimate. I always ask them if the price is fixed in stone and the usual answer is "Oh no, we might need to charge more if we encounter unforseen problems", to which my answer is "Well it's not a quote then, it's an estimate".

A lot comes down to scope. If it's a renovation job then there is no way to know what's inside the walls so it's totally reasonable to expect the client to pay if there is something like rotten framing.

If it's within the contractors control then it's a different story.

The alternative is paying higher prices overall so there is a significant risk contingency to deal with unforseen problems.

Geektastic

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#2328610 2-Oct-2019 18:09

Jase2985:

what the solar should have been doing is charging a battery (12 or 24v) and then that would be powering the gate. battery should be good for 10's of openings before going flat if there was no sun.

It was. There are a number of motorcycle batteries wired in the cabinet. However, we found that that wasn't sufficient and the installer felt that the number of batteries required would get too large.

I asked if there was a way to do it so that the mains power simply provided backup when the solar wasn't enough to charge the battery but they decided that wasn't easily achieved so removed the solar panel and installed a 12v supply powered from the house, laid in about 85m of conduit clipped to the paddock fence.

Jase2985

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#2328637 2-Oct-2019 19:32

i feel like someone is telling you porkies, a decent gate motor is about 120-150w, one of those small 7ah batteries in parallel to make 24v will give a load of 168watts power for an hour continuously. so even at a 30% depth of discharge it should still give 20 minutes of continuous use.

you could have put in a small deep cycle battery and it would have been fine. and should have lasted a week or so with out charging. put in a 50w solar panel and it should never run flat unless you are using it 10+ times a day and get a few days of cloud.

MurrayM

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#2328747 3-Oct-2019 08:38

Handle9:
MurrayM:

IMHO too many companies call them quotes when in fact what they're giving you is an estimate. I always ask them if the price is fixed in stone and the usual answer is "Oh no, we might need to charge more if we encounter unforseen problems", to which my answer is "Well it's not a quote then, it's an estimate".

A lot comes down to scope. If it's a renovation job then there is no way to know what's inside the walls so it's totally reasonable to expect the client to pay if there is something like rotten framing.

If it's within the contractors control then it's a different story.

The alternative is paying higher prices overall so there is a significant risk contingency to deal with unforseen problems.

Sure, but if you can't give an exact price then you shouldn't call it a quote; call it what it is, which is an estimate.