Coffee machine question - no water through portafilter

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martyyn

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#289281 25-Aug-2021 11:12

We only have a basic Breville Cafe Roma but we like what it does.

Yesterday it stopped passing water through the portafiler. It comes through the grouphead ok and you have to be careful when removing the portafilter because it pressurises so I'm assuming the seal is ok but nothing comes through the coffee.

I've taken it apart and clean the portafilter, the grouphead, the filter and the grouphead seal and noticed the grouphead seal does appear a little damaged around the outer edge but if it pressurises doesn't that indicate the seal is ok ?

I've tried Google and can find millions of links to clean it all etc but nothing for this specific problem. So I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas whilst I look for a replacement seal.

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#2766439 25-Aug-2021 11:21

Is that with or without coffee in the portafilter?

If water runs through the group head without it being attached, then clearly the pipes aren't blocked.

Does it sound like its straining (should be a noticeable change in the tone of the pump noise)

If there is coffee in the portafiler, odds are its too finely ground, coarsen the grind and try again.

Handsomedan

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#2766441 25-Aug-2021 11:22

Is the pump making the thumping noise it usually does? Are you getting enough pressure to force the water through the ground coffee?

My now 7 year old Barista Express has been playing up of late, with the pump not working every 1/8-9 times. I simply turn it off then on again. I am awaiting the inevitable meltdown...

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martyyn

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#2766454 25-Aug-2021 11:39

It makes all the usual noises, and no unusual ones, and it's both with and without coffee.

I've just "pinned" all the holes in the filter itself and some of them may have been blocked but not enough to make me think that was the problem.

Now if it's left running for long enough the water comes out over the portafilter so that points to not having enough of a seal.

Fred99

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#2766568 25-Aug-2021 16:29

It's a "pressurised" double-wall filter basket. They're very difficult to clean when residues and oxidised oils etc congeal between the walls, chunks just keep coming loose and blocking the exit hole on the bottom wall of the filter.

Needs to be soaked in a hot cleaning solution "espresso shampoo" (and other commercial brands of the same type of espresso cleaner) which is an alkali phosphate mix. Problem is I don't know where you'd get it during lockdown, I haven't seen it for sale in supermarkets, only on-line or at specialty coffee shops.

Baking soda "might" work but probably not strong enough, maybe with a dab of dishwash detergent added, boil that up in a pot - ie a few teaspoons of baking soda, then turn the heat off and bung the filter in, leave overnight. Maybe dishwash machine powder would work better (or a tablet - but I'd remove the dissolvable film).

Get some espresso cleaner when you can though, the oils in the group head go off, smell a bit like a dirty ashtray to me and will taint the coffee This should be done daily in a cafe, weekly at home seems to be enough. Don't know if your machine came with a "blind" filter basket (with no holes at all), but 1/2 teaspoon of espresso cleaner in the blind filter, operate the machine repeatedly to "back flush" the solution through the group head, shower screen etc to clean it. Shower screen etc may need a gentle scrub with a brush, rinse and flush it all thoroughly when done. Get a blind filter for cleaning if you haven't already got one.

When you've finished making coffee, always dump the puck of coffee and flush the portafilter straight away. If it's left to slowly dry out while still oozing coffee, the machine will get gunked up very quickly.

neb

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#2766579 25-Aug-2021 16:54

Fred99:
Baking soda "might" work but probably not strong enough, maybe with a dab of dishwash detergent added, boil that up in a pot - ie a few teaspoons of baking soda, then turn the heat off and bung the filter in, leave overnight. Maybe dishwash machine powder would work better (or a tablet - but I'd remove the dissolvable film).

Looking at the MSDS for an allegedly commercial-grade one, it's mostly sodium carbonate (so baking soda), sodium percarbonate a.k.a. "oxygen bleach", and a pinch of sodium pentadecyl sulfate, which looks like a surfactant. You can most likely mail-order the percarbonate since it's quite common if you can't get the specific espresso cleaner, and then use baking soda and maybe a bit of dishwashing powder for the surfactant.

Fred99

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#2766586 25-Aug-2021 17:25

neb:
Fred99:

Baking soda "might" work but probably not strong enough, maybe with a dab of dishwash detergent added, boil that up in a pot - ie a few teaspoons of baking soda, then turn the heat off and bung the filter in, leave overnight. Maybe dishwash machine powder would work better (or a tablet - but I'd remove the dissolvable film).

Looking at the MSDS for an allegedly commercial-grade one, it's mostly sodium carbonate (so baking soda), sodium percarbonate a.k.a. "oxygen bleach", and a pinch of sodium pentadecyl sulfate, which looks like a surfactant. You can most likely mail-order the percarbonate since it's quite common if you can't get the specific espresso cleaner, and then use baking soda and maybe a bit of dishwashing powder for the surfactant.

OK. The formula I've seen used food grade trisodium phosphate. The same active as used in some grease removers for concrete, and denture cleaning powder.

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. Sodium carbonate is washing soda.

I use a brand that's got a pinch of (probably) citric acid - so it fizzes in the blind portafilter, that increases pressure in the filter to 12 bar, and that blows the solution back through the shower screen to be dumped out the bottom of the e61 group. Seems very effective and a small shaker jar of the stuff lasts me about a year.

https://c4coffee.co.nz/products/impressshampoo

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neb

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#2766587 25-Aug-2021 17:31

Fred99:
I use a brand that's got a pinch of (probably) citric acid - so it fizzes in the blind portafilter, that increases pressure in the filter to 12 bar, and that blows the solution back through the shower screen to be dumped out the bottom of the e61 group.

The sodium percarbonate would be doing the same thing in the other stuff, I assume that's also what they're using to deal with the gone-off-oil smells you mentioned.

So it looks like any vaguely-sensible cleaning mix will do the job, if martyyn has to resort to homebrewing it while we're at level 4.

Fred99

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#2766590 25-Aug-2021 17:42

neb:
Fred99:

I use a brand that's got a pinch of (probably) citric acid - so it fizzes in the blind portafilter, that increases pressure in the filter to 12 bar, and that blows the solution back through the shower screen to be dumped out the bottom of the e61 group.

The sodium percarbonate would be doing the same thing in the other stuff, I assume that's also what they're using to deal with the gone-off-oil smells you mentioned. So it looks like any vaguely-sensible cleaning mix will do the job, if martyyn has to resort to homebrewing it while we're at level 4.

Yeah probably. Sodium percarbonate is pretty much "Napisan".

martyyn

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#2766591 25-Aug-2021 17:53

This site is awesome, so I need baking soda, napisan (we have vanish) and dishwashing liquid.

Any guesses for the quantities ?

neb

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#2766600 25-Aug-2021 18:03

martyyn: This site is awesome, so I need baking soda, napisan (we have vanish) and dishwashing liquid.

Any guesses for the quantities ?

The MSDS said around 25-50% baking soda (or at least sodium carbonate), 10-25% percarbonate, and a few percent surfactant... I'm not sure what else is in the dishwashing liquid but I assume it'd do the job for the latter component, just be aware that it's quite abrasive to deal with the fact that warm water jets != a good scrubbing with a dishcloth, so check whether it's OK to use on aluminium and similar.

I know the above doesn't add up to 100% but they're always deliberately vague over the exact composition so they can vary things as required. With the ranges given, I doubt anything is particularly critical, so it looks like "mostly baking soda, a bit of napisan, and a pinch of dishwashing liquid".

Oh, and eye of newt and wing of bat to season.

jpoc

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#2766646 25-Aug-2021 19:24

Fred99:

OK. The formula I've seen used food grade trisodium phosphate. The same active as used in some grease removers for concrete, and denture cleaning powder.

You can get that from most homebrew suppliers.

Stay clear of chlorinated trisodium phosphate however. It is fine for plastic beer bottles but it will attack stainless steel.

There are cleaners specifically available for stainless steel brewing kit. They will most likely work as well.

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sen8or

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#2766804 26-Aug-2021 08:16

I dont think the Roma has a 3 way valve, so you can't use the same group head cleaning techniques that you would use on a E61.

When you run a shot, does the excess pressure dump into the drip tray (there is a noticeable amount of liquid and the sound of air / pressure being expelled), or do you have to leave the portafilter in the group head for a few seconds and slowly release the group head to bleed out the pressure and to avoid making a mess? If the former, then it will be able to be back flushed, if the latter, it can't.

Also, get rid of the pressurised basket and order a normal one and buy (if you don't already have) a cheap grinder like a basic breville dose control https://www.breville.com/au/en/products/coffee-grinders.html#featuredRanking%20desc or similar. Parts from here https://www.needapart.co.nz/buy-online/kitchen-appliances-small/beverage-makers/espresso-coffee-machines/brand-breville or similar.

Those pressurised baskets are nasty, they build up coffee oils between the screens and go rancid pretty quick. The flavour difference between a normal basket and a pressurised one is substantial.

Fred99

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#2766846 26-Aug-2021 09:13

sen8or:

I dont think the Roma has a 3 way valve, so you can't use the same group head cleaning techniques that you would use on a E61.

Oh yikes - I forgot about that. That foaming "espresso shampoo" I linked to might be a very bad thing to use if you attempted to back-flush with a blind (or blocked) filter on the Breville machine. As soon as it starts gassing on my E61, the pressure builds to 12 bar and starts getting dumped - flushing back through the group. If there was no way for that pressure to be released, then yikes.

martyyn

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#2766988 26-Aug-2021 13:21

So last night I boiled up a concoction with a dishwashing tablet, baking soda and dishwashing liquid and left the filter in it over night. This morning I boiled it again in clean water.

After a couple of goes in the machine with no coffee it started to pour as normal again, so happy days.

@sen8or its the later. We have to leave it for a few seconds and slowly release the pressure to avoid making a mess. We have only have a cheap breville grinder with no control over the grind.

So perhaps it's time for us to upgrade the grinder and basket as a first step to better coffee.

sen8or

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#2766991 26-Aug-2021 13:34

those whirly blade grinders aren't designed for coffee really, they get far too hot and inconsistent to deliver a great coffee.

I picked up a Breville dose control grinder from a harvey norman outlet for about $100, similar workings to the dose control, but just a manual run/stop pressure switch as opposed to predefined amounts. If you can find one then its well worth the $. A cheap Sunbeam em0480 will also do the job.

If you upgrade the basket, you will need to upgrade the grinder. The pressurised baskets are designed to simulate the resistance offered by properly ground/dosed fresh coffee, hence you can get away with supermarket beans (regardless of freshness) and less than perfect coarseness on the coffee. Go the double basket, they are just easier to get right.

Even with the roma, fresh coffee (1-3 weeks old), freshly ground (per cup) and extracted with 50-60ml in 20-30 seconds will be a great coffee

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