People unable to lock their car after key fobs stopped working

Forums › Off topic › People unable to lock their car after key fobs stopped working

timmmay

20858 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5350

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#293289 11-Jan-2022 20:11

From stuff: "Shoppers at a Hamilton commercial center have been left unable to lock their cars after their key fobs suddenly stopped working"

Both of my cars, the newest about five years old, can be locked by putting the key into the lock and turning it. I wonder if anyone thought of that. Also we always test the car is locked after we hit the lock button when we're out.

SomeoneSomewhere

1882 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1086

Lifetime subscriber

#2846872 11-Jan-2022 20:29

Some newer keys hide the physical blade behind a cover or inside the key, with a fairly hidden button. If you've got keyless ignition, you might not remember about it.

Cars with no physical key-blade (like (some?) Teslas) could be interesting. I think they have a similar backup close-range RFID system for if the battery fails, similar to holding the key to the start button in a keyless-start car. Presumably the field strength needed to interfere with this is much higher than interfering with the long-range transmission. This is mostly for locking though - I'm pretty sure one of our cars can't be locked via the physical lock, and unlocking it only does that door and triggers the alarm if a key with the right immobiliser chip isn't stuck in the ignition.

I'm happy enough seeing the lights flash or hearing the right thunk sound.

I'm rather curious about what's causing the actual issue here. I'm a little surprised RSM aren't throwing their weight around given you presumably need illegal power levels, unless something is specifically targetting the protocol used by the keys.

SATTV

1670 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 658

ID Verified

#2846873 11-Jan-2022 20:35

My car is fob only, no key at all, 2015 Prius.

My 2006 Nissan Tiida had a hidden key in the fob and it only had the key in the drivers door.

There was that issue in Hamilton a few years ago, I dont know if they ever go to the bottom of it, maybe it went away and now back again.

Sometime people could not start their car with the fob, AA would tow them a few hundred meters and it would work.

Being the fobs are in the ISM band RFS would not be interested in locating the source of interference.

John

I know enough to be dangerous

ezbee

2651 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3089

#2846884 11-Jan-2022 21:35

The comment by the Base Management seems to indicate they know what it is.

Carpark sensors are in low Freq 300-400MHz area if that's the Freq of concern.
But then that would happen everywhere ?

So I might be leaning to development of long range IOT or Point to Point Farm of things R&D in the area.
Options in 300-400MHz area or 800-900MHz area and while there are legal restrictions on power an duty cycle.
Well alter some parameters in code and you can punch out much more.

If you have a licensed frequency next to that punching out high power might also intrude depending on selectivity of RF locks.

""
Centre manager Simon Betts said The Base was aware of the issue, which was linked to a “recent offsite electrical incident”.

No malicious activity was involved, Betts said, but he would not elaborate on what the incident was
""

davidcole

6099 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1465

Trusted

#2846890 11-Jan-2022 21:56

I always remember something I read about the proximity fobs when they tested it for electromagnetic radiation. I think the story was they were just seeing what a Tesla put out. But then had these really high readings from in the car.

Worked out it was the proximity fob. Suggested not keeping it in your pants .

Previously known as psycik

Home Assistant: Gigabyte AMD A8 Brix, Home Assistant with Aeotech ZWave Controller, Raspberry PI, Wemos D1 Mini, Zwave, Shelly Humidity and Temperature sensors
Media:Chromecast v2, ATV4 4k, ATV4, HDHomeRun Dual
Server Host Plex Server 3x3TB, 4x4TB using MergerFS, Samsung 850 evo 512 GB SSD, Proxmox Server with 1xW10, 2xUbuntu 22.04 LTS, Backblaze Backups, usenetprime.com fastmail.com Sharesies Trakt.TV Sharesight

SomeoneSomewhere

1882 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1086

Lifetime subscriber

#2846891 11-Jan-2022 21:59

Very suspicious. Surely they could turn whatever it is off? And they say it's 'not malicious' and 'offsite'.

Looks like it's adjacent to the railway, and there's a WEL zone substation on the other side of the tracks. Those are the only things nearby where 'just kill the power' might not be the obvious solution. I wonder if WEL or Kiwirail are experimenting with something. Perhaps a fault in the ripple plant or trying a new way of injecting comms down the power lines?

davidcole: I always remember something I read about the proximity fobs when they tested it for electromagnetic radiation. I think the story was they were just seeing what a Tesla put out. But then had these really high readings from in the car.

Worked out it was the proximity fob. Suggested not keeping it in your pants .

I'm pretty sure that's just the anti-EMF folks. If it's going to run on a coin cell for months, it simply can't put out enough energy to harm you unless very concentrated like a laser.

danfaulknor

974 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 533

Trusted

Prodigi

Subscriber

#2846901 11-Jan-2022 22:30

This happened in Invercargill a few years back - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106902631/dozens-locked-out-of-car-in-invercargill-cbd-because-radio-equipment-blocked-car-remotes

they/them

Prodigi - Optimised IT Solutions
WebOps/DevOps, Managed IT, Hosting and Internet/WAN.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

SomeoneSomewhere

1882 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1086

Lifetime subscriber

#2846904 11-Jan-2022 22:35

Hmm. Fair assumption. 433MHz rings a bell as being the typical frequency of garage door openers and car fobs.

And there's IoT/comms gear that runs on 433MHz, so I could see Kiwirail or WEL doing something with that - I know Kiwirail had a plan along those lines (though in the 900MHz band) a few years back, and Electra has a functioning wireless network for monitoring and control, according to their reports.

EDIT: Electra (Kapiti) isn't the lines company involved; I'm just saying other lines companies are interested in this tech. A transmitter at the power limit on a directional Yagi pointed across the carpark could probably cause some havoc. And it explains why there's some negotiation and time involved rather than the landlord telling the tenants to shut down their stuff or get the power cut, questionable as that may be.

gzt

18679 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 7813

Lifetime subscriber

#2846915 11-Jan-2022 23:09

I get this at one or two petrol stations. Holding the fob somewhere near the flashy thing on the dash through the windscreen usually does the trick. Where is the receiver for most cars?

Scott3

4176 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2990

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2846916 11-Jan-2022 23:24

I'm a bit amused by the guy who requested anonymiy:

"The man said people were walking into the shops, thinking their cars are locked, when they were not.

He said if someone took items from one of the unlocked cars, the lack of a physical break-in meant they could not claim insurance.

The man said The Base needed to be more open about what caused the interference, take responsibility, and prevent it from happening again...."

I doubt very many people just hit the button on their keyfob, and don't check for audible / visual clues to show the vehicle has read the keystroke. Beyond interference, key batteries go flat, keystrokes are sometimes too short, and there are other reasons car's won't lock, like a door being not shut properly. In on of my car's (electric with keyless entry), I frustratingly frequently forget to turn the car off, which is also a no lock event.

Assume he wasn't aware the issue was offsite from the base.

SATTV:

My car is fob only, no key at all, 2015 Prius.

My 2006 Nissan Tiida had a hidden key in the fob and it only had the key in the drivers door.

There was that issue in Hamilton a few years ago, I dont know if they ever go to the bottom of it, maybe it went away and now back again.

Sometime people could not start their car with the fob, AA would tow them a few hundred meters and it would work.

Being the fobs are in the ISM band RFS would not be interested in locating the source of interference.

John

Would be very unusual if it didn't have one hidden inside the fob, and a key hole in the drivers door.

Screen Shot 2016-12-03 at 11.25.35 AM.png

Otherwise, there should be some kind of back up, deal with both a flat fob battery, and a flat car battery. This is possible. Many cars have close range wireless to allow the car to start with a flat fob battery, when held to the dash, could duplicate this system on the car exterior like a model 3. Model 3 has jump start terminals that are accessible with the vehicle locked (near the two hook). Workable, but a bit of potential risk with this, so some other auto makers may shy away.

empacher48

376 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 283

#2846925 12-Jan-2022 06:49

This would be an issue with one of our vehicles, the normal key in the fob only unlocks the door, you can’t lock it using it.

The car can either be locked with the fob, or when it no longer senses the presence of the key locally. So you can take the fob out of the car, walk about 10m away and the car self locks.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if the interference would cause the self locking system to fail. If it does, then there would be no way to lock the vehicle.

insane

3324 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1006

ID Verified

Trusted

2degrees

Subscriber

#2846943 12-Jan-2022 08:41

Perhaps just coincidence but one (not the 2nd) of my remotes just stopped working on my VW in Auckland.

Light on remote was still working and a new battery made no difference. Maybe it just lost its programming or something and needs readapting.