never believed the rumours about Ref bias until now....

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NonprayingMantis

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Topic # 65975 10-Aug-2010 12:47

So i have often heard Ozzies and South Africans talk about the All Blacks get favoured by the referees, and always considered it sour grapes..... until now.

In the last few weeks of the Trinations we have had some mild foul play on the part of South Africa and Australia (the tip tackles by Fourie and Cooper which were basically non-events) get punished with yellow cards as well as suspensions.

Then in the game on saturday Woodcock commits an act equally as blatan, intentional, and illegal as the Bakkies Botha headbutt (the difference being Botha was provoked, Woodcock was not). The referee sees it, and all Woodcock gets is a simple warning from the ref. To top it off he is not even cited by the commissioner. Ridiculous. How can the tip tackles warrant suspensions on top of the yellow cards, the headbutt warrant 9 weeks suspension, yet the blatant foul play by woodcock is waved away as nothing.

It's no wonder people complain about the ABs getting favourable treatment when this sort of thing happens. How can this be seen as anything but bias towards the ABs?

Toiletduck

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Reply # 365836 10-Aug-2010 13:08

I agree,
Tony Woodcock is my favourite player and I was shocked on Sat - he should have been sent off for blatant thuggery.

I believe that the refs are trying to NOT hand out yellow cards since the start of the tri-nations resulted in too many.

However the all-blacks do have another natural bias that works against them. This is the (colour) Black jersey.

If the ref is unsure who to penalise in moments of chaos (ie: a scrap) there is the natural bias of Black(bad) vs (say) White. I have been watching this for years and in the last 2 years this hasn't been a prob - but I suspect that rulings can go against the all-blacks in situations where the ref is losing control and feels he needs to make a statement and penalise someone.

On another note - -
I am concerned that the "Hollywood hamming it up" doesn't blight rugby as it does with Italian soccer.

Si

wazza15

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Reply # 365840 10-Aug-2010 13:16

this article on stuff's website says it all

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/4008427/Cards-stacked-in-All-Blacks-favour

Ragnor

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Reply # 365846 10-Aug-2010 13:24

I bet if you analysed the stats there isn't a real pattern here just human error, the ref's aren't omnipotent.

The human brain is a pattern matching machine, one down side is that is prematurely see patterns that don't always actually exist.

Next month we'll be complaining about shocking decisions costing the AB's matches.

NonprayingMantis

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Reply # 365859 10-Aug-2010 13:40

Ragnor: I bet if you analysed the stats there isn't a real pattern here just human error, the ref's aren't omnipotent.

The human brain is a pattern matching machine, one down side is that is prematurely see patterns that don't always actually exist.

Next month we'll be complaining about shocking decisions costing the AB's matches.

heat of the moment decisions made incorrectly when the ref has no opportunity for a replay can be understandable when it happens occasionally . the ref cannot be expected to see everything.

However when the ref sees something and even says what he saw (in the case of woodcock) and refuses to follow the law which requires a yellow for this sort of incidence then it can only be incompetence or bias.

Furthermore, what is even more inexcusable is the lack of citing after the match, the commissioner has access to replays and does not have to make his decisions within seconds. to get something so obviously wrong there can only indicate gross incompetence or bias.

these kind of things ultimately hurt the ABs too. It gives them a false sense of security which may not continue come RWC time when refs cannot afford to demonstrate the bias they currently do in front of the world stage. Not only that but it cheapens any AB victory. Would the ABs still have won had Woodcock been binned? Probably, but we will never know what the correct result would have been.

Regs

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Reply # 366049 10-Aug-2010 22:01

i was surprised as everyone that woodcock didnt get carded, or have it picked on after the match and cop a suspension. i'm not sure that one incident spells ref bias in general though.

in woodcocks defense - he was probably getting pissed off at the infringing on the wrong side of the ruck and that probably led him to do it...

in the previous match, the all blacks did lose franks to a yellow card for a shoulder charge, at the same time the aussies lost mitchell, and on replay there was definately no offence. That the aussies lost mitchell to a red card was fair - the team had been warned and he still threw away the ball. Any other player would have just received a yellow, but he'd already been sent off.

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NonprayingMantis

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Reply # 366084 11-Aug-2010 00:11

Regs: i was surprised as everyone that woodcock didnt get carded, or have it picked on after the match and cop a suspension. i'm not sure that one incident spells ref bias in general though.

it doesn't, but most bad decisions that people claim come down to bias are arguable either way and can be explained by a ref not seeing something. This one cannot be explained by that. The ref said he saw it, and the commissioner also did nothing. The only explanation I can see is incompetence or bias. Kaplan is certianly not incompetant, and I would hope the IRB doesn't hire incompetent citing commissioners

in woodcocks defense - he was probably getting pissed off at the infringing on the wrong side of the ruck and that probably led him to do it...

how is that a defence?

in the previous match, the all blacks did lose franks to a yellow card for a shoulder charge, at the same time the aussies lost mitchell, and on replay there was definately no offence. That the aussies lost mitchell to a red card was fair - the team had been warned and he still threw away the ball. Any other player would have just received a yellow, but he'd already been sent off.

yeah, the throwing away the ball yellow was fair. He wasn't on the pitch when the warning came out, so probably assumed the ref was just letting people get away with it all the time. that is no defence for the second yellow, though he should never have received the first one (which was just a bit of play acting by Richie McCaw)

which reminds me of another incident.
earlier in that 1st NZ v OZ game the ref marched the ABs 10m for not letting the ozzies have the ball for a quick penalty. The ABs picked up the ball and did it again on the same penalty right in front of the same place and the ref did nothing. the ref hadn't issued a warning at that stage, but doing it twice on the same penalty is nothing more than a professional foul, which warrants a yellow card every time.

NonprayingMantis

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Reply # 369340 18-Aug-2010 14:49

this, to me, is pretty damning.

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Reply # 369361 18-Aug-2010 15:15

well what about the other teams? do they cheat in some form or other? if you are unsure just watch the fifa world cup!

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NonprayingMantis

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Reply # 369379 18-Aug-2010 15:35

joker97: well what about the other teams? do they cheat in some form or other? if you are unsure just watch the fifa world cup!

FIFA world cup is football, so not sure what that has to do with anything.

Do other rugby teams cheat? Of course they do, but that is not the question. The question is, do the all Blacks get away with it more than othewr teams? Seems to me the answer is a resounding 'Yes'