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Byrned

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#91451 13-Oct-2011 14:42
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At home today sick, so doing the usual thing, lying on the couch, channel surfing, and I find myself watching Piers Morgan interviewing Jeb Bush (yes, THAT Bush family, although it sounds ), and something strange happened... I found myself agreeing with what he was saying about education. Wait a minute, this is the US that I'm talking about! 

The key points that he makes are:
  • A focus on early childhood literacy so by the time they get to school kids are prepared to learn
  • The elimination of social promotion in school (not sure how this would relate to NZ)
  • More school choice to bring pressure on the system, so parents can choose to send there children to better schools, if local schools are underperforming (we kind of have this now in our decile system, but parents really don't have the chance to act on the information really)
  • The embrace of technology
  • Rewarding teachers for student learning (based on learning gains), rather than longevity of service
For me, I believe the main points we need to embrace in NZ are the childhood literacy, and the rewarding teachers for performance. I mean what other jobs these days do people get rewarded for just turning up, vs the person that gets the job done!

Now, I'm not a teacher, nor am I involved in the education system in anyway, so I could just be talking out of my ...

 

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jonb
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  #532888 13-Oct-2011 14:59
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I would be hesitant about rewarding teachers for performance, as that is almost by necessity tied to testing. There is a growing body of evidence that the school system, in the US in particular but becoming prevelant elsewhere like the NZ National Standards, that this pushes education too far towards children learning just for testing. Whilst the most successful people in life are not those who can parrot information, but are good critical thinkers.

Byrned

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  #532896 13-Oct-2011 15:14
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Surely you could test at the beginning of the year, and then at the end of the year and if the level of what has been learnt has increased.

I agree that certain socioeconomic areas will have kids that are, shall we say, less likely to have the same education support at home as other kids do.This really requires more from the teachers to lift this level. Maybe a system where teachers who are in a lower decile school, and achieve the same level of what has been learnt by the end of year, achieve a greater payrise?

I know that the job that I am in, if I achieve average growth in just meet targets, I will generally receive a modest payrise. If I exceed targets compared to my peers, I will receive a greater payrise.

However it is done, I believe the current system where the amount you get paid is based on years of service. It's just simply not geared to ensure that kids are the ones that benefit.

 
 
 
 


jonb
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  #532903 13-Oct-2011 15:29
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I agree, it's just unfortunate that teaching is oneee of those professions, like programming, that is hard to measure objectively.  By teaching pupils to succed in tests, you may actually doing the kids a disservice. 

I agree with the things in the interview about gaining literacy before starting school. It's in sort of conflict with his republican beliefs though - providing more early childhood education to poor, less-educated people, all sounds a bit too socialist.  Even in New Zealand, there's less ECE centres in South Auckland than in more affluent areas, when you could easily argue that that is the areas that need them most.

MikeyPI
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  #532927 13-Oct-2011 15:52
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Byrned: At home today sick, so doing the usual thing, lying on the couch, channel surfing, and I find myself watching Piers Morgan interviewing Jeb Bush (yes, THAT Bush family, although it sounds ), and something strange happened... I found myself agreeing with what he was saying about education. Wait a minute, this is the US that I'm talking about!  

The key points that he makes are: 
  • A focus on early childhood literacy so by the time they get to school kids are prepared to learn
  • The elimination of social promotion in school (not sure how this would relate to NZ)
  • More school choice to bring pressure on the system, so parents can choose to send there children to better schools, if local schools are underperforming (we kind of have this now in our decile system, but parents really don't have the chance to act on the information really)
  • The embrace of technology
  • Rewarding teachers for student learning (based on learning gains), rather than longevity of service
For me, I believe the main points we need to embrace in NZ are the childhood literacy, and the rewarding teachers for performance. I mean what other jobs these days do people get rewarded for just turning up, vs the person that gets the job done! 

Now, I'm not a teacher, nor am I involved in the education system in anyway, so I could just be talking out of my ... 

 


Gawd where  to start in this mess...

1. 99% of the people who do sweet fa for a living, ie most CEO's, bureaucrats, public service bosses, politicians get paid for just turning up, infact most get paid for not even turning up. Why should teachers, one of the most important jobs in a nation, get paid in the lowest bracket. Ask any teacher how many hours they work a week and you will find most do 9-10 hours a day, 6 days a week. 

2. Under performing schools = poor schools as simple as that. So the richer the school, the more they get rewarded.. Is that fair?

3. Embrace technology, whose paying for that? Go to a Decile 1 school in Auckland, and kids are worrying about how they are going to eat, not can I get a new iPad.. That is just a guise for more forced consumerism, hence the concerted push for iPads / tablets for all students everywhere. That is being driven by companies first, then economic advisers, govts. 

3. This is being driven by the right wing US factions who are now claiming teachers & firefighters are the reason the US is bankrupt. This serves 2 purposes.. A) they are the last remaining unions in the US, and there is nothing an ardent capitalist loves more than destroying unions, and B) it distracts from the fact the their insatiable greed, hatred for fellow man, and inability to make the rich & corporations contribute fairly..

If you believe anything that comes out of a Bush's mouth you need your head read. I mean Jeb Bush helped rig an election with that b/s "petitioners plea" (ie they couldnt do a recount because if Bush wanst the winner, it would make his job as President too hard wtf?!?) .... 

Theives and liars, the entire family..

gjm

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  #532942 13-Oct-2011 16:09
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I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.




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Byrned

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  #532960 13-Oct-2011 16:34
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MikeyPI: Gawd where  to start in this mess... 
 
 

Hey hey hey big guy - chill out a bit. I just said there were some interesting things and some of them I agree with.

I've worked in companies where the CEO worked 12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week. I've also worked for a company where you were lucky to see the CEO of the company. The difference was the later was a family owned company and I would be willing to bet good money for many years while this company was started, he worked long hours AND risked it all. And as for the former, I NEVER had any problems with the money he was paid as it was his job to ensure that the company was viable and that over 5000 people would have jobs to go to every day. When you have the qualifications, experience, and the willingness to take on that responsibility & accountability, you can get that too.

And as for politicians, I'm not even going to get into that. Well, I will a little. I think you'll find MP's do actually work very long hours, especially in their constituency, and I would imagine MP's with cabinet positions have a considerable workload also. List MP's, I don't know anyone that is so I don't know and haven't asked.

As for your statement that most get paid for not turning up, would you care to substantiate that, or is it just opinion? 

My whole thinking around the first part that you've "bagged" without substantiating is an old flatmate of mine who is a teacher has just quit NZ and moved to NZ. I asked her why and her answer was she was sick of busting her butt whereas others that she worked with just cruised and got paid the same so what was the point. She'd rather go somewhere where they will pay her what she is worth, and get a different experience in life as well. Well I'm all for paying teachers more, and the dispute that they were having last year in favor of higher pay I was in favor of, except  that I believe that any raise should be based on a performance measure of some sort. Perhaps you can explain how you justify a payrise every year to your boss, or do you just go into there office and say "Well another years passed, where's my payrise?"

Embrace technology, yeah, I'm in favor of that, but you'll notice that I didn't say I think it was one of the most important parts. In fact on another thread here somewhere, someone was suggesting tablets for every student to which I replied I would rather have more teachers.

And I didn't say I believe what Jeb said, once again if you read the post, I did say I couldn't believe this was coming from a Bush, I just said I liked some of the ideas. Perhaps if we judged the sentiment and not the man, we would be having a different discusion. Personally I think if we're ever to sort out education then political ideology needs to be removed from the discusion, but that's like asking the middle east to forget religion while they sort out there problems!

Actually, if you're not willing to bring anything to the conversation about ways to improve the system, then all you're doing is really re-enforcing why it won't be fixed.

Byrned

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  #532969 13-Oct-2011 16:40
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gjm: I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.


Well, no system is ever going to stop someone cheating a system. I bet everyone here could probably come up with a dishonest way to get ahead, and the only thing that stops most people is the threat of getting caught. It's no different to stealing from your employer but it doesn't stop jobs from having some sort of incentive around them, whether that is gaining greater skills, achieving results against a target, or any other number of other ways of measuring performance.

BTW, Is she still in that job? I would think not. 

 
 
 
 


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  #532972 13-Oct-2011 16:43
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gjm: I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.


ROFL. Seriously? "Documentary"? It's a comedy. And not true story.

 




 

 

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#532973 13-Oct-2011 16:44
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gjm: I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.


it is definitely an excellent documentary. i suggest OP watch this documentary





nakedmolerat
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  #532975 13-Oct-2011 16:44
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freitasm:
gjm: I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.


ROFL. Seriously? "Documentary"? It's a comedy. And not true story.

 


you spoilt it.. sigh





keewee01
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  #532984 13-Oct-2011 16:50
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You can't merely test children at the start and finish of the year as it comes down to how a child performs on that single day they are tested; also kids brains get lazy over summer so scores will be lower at the start of the year when compared to the end of the year. AND it is open to manipulation.

MikeyPI:

Gawd where  to start in this mess...

1. 99% of the people who do sweet fa for a living, ie most CEO's, bureaucrats, public service bosses, politicians get paid for just turning up, infact most get paid for not even turning up. Why should teachers, one of the most important jobs in a nation, get paid in the lowest bracket. Ask any teacher how many hours they work a week and you will find most do 9-10 hours a day, 6 days a week. 

2. Under performing schools = poor schools as simple as that. So the richer the school, the more they get rewarded.. Is that fair?

3. Embrace technology, whose paying for that? Go to a Decile 1 school in Auckland, and kids are worrying about how they are going to eat, not can I get a new iPad.. That is just a guise for more forced consumerism, hence the concerted push for iPads / tablets for all students everywhere. That is being driven by companies first, then economic advisers, govts. 

3. This is being driven by the right wing US factions who are now claiming teachers & firefighters are the reason the US is bankrupt. This serves 2 purposes.. A) they are the last remaining unions in the US, and there is nothing an ardent capitalist loves more than destroying unions, and B) it distracts from the fact the their insatiable greed, hatred for fellow man, and inability to make the rich & corporations contribute fairly..

If you believe anything that comes out of a Bush's mouth you need your head read. I mean Jeb Bush helped rig an election with that b/s "petitioners plea" (ie they couldnt do a recount because if Bush wanst the winner, it would make his job as President too hard wtf?!?) .... 

Theives and liars, the entire family..


1. I know quite a few teachers (people I went through Uni with, friends and family, and I've been on a BOT) - and I would have to say that it is the minority who do those sorts of hours. At my sons school, and another school (I live across the road from) most teachers are gone by 3.15pm and they are usually ain't taking work home. AND they get how many weeks of paid holidays a year??? Would average at least 10 weeks for all the teachers I know - and they are the better teachers who do go in to school on the odd day in the school holidays and for the last week of the summer holidays. So, sorry - from what I see every day I cannot agree with the 9-10 hours a day, 6 days a week. I don't disagree that some do, but they are by far the minority - and the weeks and weeks of holidays they get (and do take) well and truly make up for it.

2 & 3. Under performing schools = poor schools (ie. Low Decile School) get huge amounts of funding from the Government/MOE to run their schools. The Low Decile schools I know of are doing very well thank you w.r.t. resources. They only fundraise a few thousand dollars a year and they have heaps and heaps of modern electronics in the school (computers, projectors, etc, etc); Compare that to my sons school which is Decile 7 (thanks to it having an off shoot school based in a rural area of dairy farmers) and their $20,000+ funding short fall that they have to fundraise for every year. That is so they can buy the computers and projectors, etc that the lower decile schools essentially get given. It's an interesting situation where the school jumps up quite a few rungs on the decile rating ladder due to a minority.

All children should have and equal and fair oppourtunity to embrace technology, which shouldn't be dictated by the Decile rating of your school.


gjm

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  #532988 13-Oct-2011 16:54
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freitasm:
gjm: I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.


ROFL. Seriously? "Documentary"? It's a comedy. And not true story.

 


/sarcasm 




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jonb
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  #532991 13-Oct-2011 16:55
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freitasm:
gjm: I saw a documentary once called Bad Teacher where she helped students cheat on a test so that she would get a financial reward for having the best class. True story.


ROFL. Seriously? "Documentary"? It's a comedy. And not true story.

 


Mauricio - consider yourself trolled Cool

Byrned

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  #532993 13-Oct-2011 16:58
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keewee01: You can't merely test children at the start and finish of the year as it comes down to how a child performs on that single day they are tested; also kids brains get lazy over summer so scores will be lower at the start of the year when compared to the end of the year. AND it is open to manipulation.



Fair point. As I said, I'm not involved in education in anyway, I just believe that like any job, there is a way to measure performance. What that is, I'll have to leave that to people that are involved in education. 

keewee01
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  #533061 13-Oct-2011 19:40
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Byrned:
keewee01: You can't merely test children at the start and finish of the year as it comes down to how a child performs on that single day they are tested; also kids brains get lazy over summer so scores will be lower at the start of the year when compared to the end of the year. AND it is open to manipulation.



Fair point. As I said, I'm not involved in education in anyway, I just believe that like any job, there is a way to measure performance. What that is, I'll have to leave that to people that are involved in education. 


Byrned: wasn't directing that at you, more a case of commenting on what Bush had said. You could test at start and end of year, but I'd hate to comment on the accuracy of it.

I know my sons school use National tests (and some may be International) for various areas once per term (speech, literacy/reading, maths, etc)

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