Price gouging on IP space?

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MichaelNZ

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#820362 15-May-2013 22:53

Stryfe: Yep that's insane! My current ISP running out of IPV4 to allocate, but the price they charge for a /27 is only $100. Roll on IPV6!

That's what they all say, but lot's of NZ ISP's are loaded with IPV4 space they got when it was available for the asking (and this was the case even just a few years ago).

The news is about *APNIC* getting low. I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low. (update: HD say they are on their website)

The price gougers are just trying to take advantage of the confusion. There is nothing new about this. There were ISP's claiming to be short in the 1990's, and yet in 2003/04 I had a /25 + /26 and was due to get a /23 - all for the asking. This was quite common at the time. ISP's would call up their wholesalers and get blocks of space just for asking. I'm not suggesting things are like this anymore, but I do know for a fact, your average NZ ISP is not short on space.

As of a week ago I have the /28 of IP space.

WFH Linux Systems and Networks Engineer in the Internet industry | Specialising in Mikrotik | APNIC member | Open to job offers | ZL2NET

Stryfe

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#820363 15-May-2013 23:00

MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

MichaelNZ

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#820366 15-May-2013 23:08

Stryfe:
MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

HD are pretty recent arrivals. The average ISP (who has been around for 10+ years) is not as short as they claim. If they were, they would be supporting IPV6 by now, but clearly there is a perverse financial motive otherwise.

WFH Linux Systems and Networks Engineer in the Internet industry | Specialising in Mikrotik | APNIC member | Open to job offers | ZL2NET

networkn

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#820370 15-May-2013 23:27

Stryfe:
MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

Not really sure how this is refreshing OR transparent? This is simply a list of products for sale.

Zeon

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#820375 15-May-2013 23:43

I get a /24 from orcon for free they are extremely liberal

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eXDee

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#820378 15-May-2013 23:46

MichaelNZ:
Stryfe:
MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

HD are pretty recent arrivals. The average ISP (who has been around for 10+ years) is not as short as they claim. If they were, they would be supporting IPV6 by now, but clearly there is a perverse financial motive otherwise.

I wouldn't call lightwire an average ISP and i'm pretty sure they haven't been around in their current form for 10 years.

They are advertising less than 5k addresses:
http://nzix.net/cgi-bin/lg.cgi?query=bgp&protocol=IPv4&addr=neighbors+218.100.56.15+routes&router=rs1.hix.nzix.net

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insane

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#820380 16-May-2013 00:03

Zeon: I get a /24 from orcon for free they are extremely liberal

Yeah I know of one medium sized nz ISP which managed to get two /16s when starting out. Would have loved to see the justification at the time. Meanwhile everyone else gets fragments here and there ...

Bunch of ISPs also still have large chunks of Telecom 210.55.0.0/16 space, not sure if that is leftover from WBS days? I know we have a /19 or perhaps more still kicking around. Right pain in the arse moving business users off them.

kiwirock

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#820381 16-May-2013 00:14

eXDee:
MichaelNZ:
Stryfe:
MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

HD are pretty recent arrivals. The average ISP (who has been around for 10+ years) is not as short as they claim. If they were, they would be supporting IPV6 by now, but clearly there is a perverse financial motive otherwise.

I wouldn't call lightwire an average ISP and i'm pretty sure they haven't been around in their current form for 10 years.

They are advertising less than 5k addresses:
http://nzix.net/cgi-bin/lg.cgi?query=bgp&protocol=IPv4&addr=neighbors+218.100.56.15+routes&router=rs1.hix.nzix.net

A trace through Snap to Lightwire's web server goes to Sydney and back.

Zeon

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#820382 16-May-2013 00:17

kiwirock:
eXDee:
MichaelNZ:
Stryfe:
MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

HD are pretty recent arrivals. The average ISP (who has been around for 10+ years) is not as short as they claim. If they were, they would be supporting IPV6 by now, but clearly there is a perverse financial motive otherwise.

I wouldn't call lightwire an average ISP and i'm pretty sure they haven't been around in their current form for 10 years.

They are advertising less than 5k addresses:
http://nzix.net/cgi-bin/lg.cgi?query=bgp&protocol=IPv4&addr=neighbors+218.100.56.15+routes&router=rs1.hix.nzix.net

A trace through Snap to Lightwire's web server goes to Sydney and back.

They should be both peering at common NZIX exchanges. Inform their NOC

Speedtest 2019-10-14

Stryfe

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#820383 16-May-2013 00:18

networkn: Not really sure how this is refreshing OR transparent? This is simply a list of products for sale.

I was meaning the note at the top " Note: We are running out of Public IPv4 allocations. "

That is all.

networkn

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#820715 16-May-2013 18:23

Stryfe:
networkn: Not really sure how this is refreshing OR transparent? This is simply a list of products for sale.

I was meaning the note at the top " Note: We are running out of Public IPv4 allocations. "

That is all.

I guess you could look at that two ways from my perspective. :)

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Stryfe

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#820801 16-May-2013 20:33

Heh, very true, but surely they would be charging more, if they intended to be gouging? (e.g OP's provider)

mercutio

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#820810 16-May-2013 20:53

i don't think $1000/month is unreasonable to pay for a fibre link with a routed /28. sure it may be nice to have it cheaper, .. but if internet is important to your company, then you will have been paying $1000/month for a while already.

eXDee

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#821129 17-May-2013 13:00

Zeon:
kiwirock:
eXDee:
MichaelNZ:
Stryfe:
MichaelNZ: I haven't seen any ISP come out and say they are low.

For some refreshing transparency;

http://www.hd.net.nz/datacentre/ipv4-ip-addresses.html

HD are pretty recent arrivals. The average ISP (who has been around for 10+ years) is not as short as they claim. If they were, they would be supporting IPV6 by now, but clearly there is a perverse financial motive otherwise.

I wouldn't call lightwire an average ISP and i'm pretty sure they haven't been around in their current form for 10 years.

They are advertising less than 5k addresses:
http://nzix.net/cgi-bin/lg.cgi?query=bgp&protocol=IPv4&addr=neighbors+218.100.56.15+routes&router=rs1.hix.nzix.net

A trace through Snap to Lightwire's web server goes to Sydney and back.

They should be both peering at common NZIX exchanges. Inform their NOC

This appears to be fixed as of yesterday. Before Snap to Lightwire went via kordia in sydney, and lightwire sent it back to snap dierctly via kordia in APE. Now lightwire seems to be sending it via FX networks which is routing correctly both ways.

As far as i can see its all fine now, there seems to be no issue with other providers using kordias upstream based on some simple trace routes, but something being up with airnets routing back to snap might explain the high latency:

Tracing route to airnet.net.nz [202.137.240.9]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fritz.box [192.168.1.1]
2 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 16.17.69.111.static.snap.net.nz [111.69.17.16]
3 14 ms 10 ms 14 ms 54.32.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz [111.69.32.54]
4 11 ms 11 ms 16 ms kordia1.ape.nzix.net [192.203.154.20]
5 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms 124.157.96.10
6 63 ms 65 ms 63 ms 124.157.96.9
7 137 ms 145 ms 148 ms geA-v3100-nap.fw01.airnet.net.nz [202.137.240.161]
8 129 ms 132 ms 129 ms secure-pub.airnet.net.nz [202.137.240.9]

Trace complete.

mercutio

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#821178 17-May-2013 13:52

eXDee:
As far as i can see its all fine now, there seems to be no issue with other providers using kordias upstream based on some simple trace routes, but something being up with airnets routing back to snap might explain the high latency:

Tracing route to airnet.net.nz [202.137.240.9]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms fritz.box [192.168.1.1]
2 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 16.17.69.111.static.snap.net.nz [111.69.17.16]
3 14 ms 10 ms 14 ms 54.32.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz [111.69.32.54]
4 11 ms 11 ms 16 ms kordia1.ape.nzix.net [192.203.154.20]
5 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms 124.157.96.10
6 63 ms 65 ms 63 ms 124.157.96.9
7 137 ms 145 ms 148 ms geA-v3100-nap.fw01.airnet.net.nz [202.137.240.161]
8 129 ms 132 ms 129 ms secure-pub.airnet.net.nz [202.137.240.9]

Trace complete.

heaps of jitter (~60 msec from here) suggests congestion, maybe a fibre cut with inadequete redundancy.

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