Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Why are dynamic proxies used by RSPs?

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33 posts

Geek

#908466 5-Oct-2013 14:52

The IP address shown for WAN in my router is 10.46.xxx.yyy and is unchanging within a session but different to when I check on www.whatsmyip.org - 49.224.240.31. This then cycled thru .34 .37 .41 .42 in the 14 minutes I was on the phone to Voda technical support on 4th Oct. As of 14:36 on the 5th Oct, whatsmyip.org shows my IP address to be 49.224.241.2 and still cycling.

kyhwana2:
RuralJohnny: 10.46.xxx.yyy

Wait, is this on the WAN address?

So Vodafone are CGNating RBI customers? Interesting to know..

Thank you kyhwana2. You may have hit the nail on the head. But why is that interesting to know?

In researching what CGNAT is, I see a probable answer to my original query. What I do not see in that research as yet, is why it is necessary to change the IP address so often. Is it a matter of needing to increment the CGNated address when one IP addresses is fully allocated to users?

If this is the issue, then it more than annoys me that Vodafone itself had not thought thru the consequences of using CGNAT and/or had not let its customer/technical services teams know the consequences. Yesterday I had technical support tell me (I had to first ask) that the issue is not their's to solve because other users (ie non-Voda users) face the same issue and that it was an issue for my web mail service provider to solve.

49.224.241.2

1080p

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#908480 5-Oct-2013 15:12

Oh wow... better blame it on the mail provider.

@RuralJohnny, is this an issue with HTTPS services too?

RuralJohnny

33 posts

Geek

#908486 5-Oct-2013 15:31

1080p: Oh wow... better blame it on the mail provider.

@RuralJohnny, is this an issue with HTTPS services too?

It is not at all clear - I am not logged on to my internet banking long enough for it to have become a problem if indeed there is one. My gmail accounts seem to be functioning fine

mercutio

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#908725 6-Oct-2013 11:28

sounds like there's double problems, the ip shouldn't constantly be changing to the same destination, and the web server shouldn't assume one constant unchanging ip.

aol is a good example with constantly changing ip addresses for a significant amount of time. i dunno if it changed now, but it's big enough that software really shouldn't be broken.

you may be able to pay extra and get a real static IPv4 address.

coffeebaron

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#908733 6-Oct-2013 11:58

Are you still in contract with Vodafone? There are other providers for RBI who don't do CGNAT and quite probably have better plans too.
Also you signal level is a bit marginal. Do you know if you are connected on 2100 or 900? To find out which you on, go to mobile settings and lock to 3G only + band U2100 or U900 only. You will find one of those settings will drop your signal right out and the other setting should keep signal the same. Whichever setting stays the same, that will be band you are on.

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Ragnor

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#908768 6-Oct-2013 13:56

kyhwana2:

So Vodafone are CGNating RBI customers? Interesting to know..

More lame than interesting!

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RuralJohnny

33 posts

Geek

#909433 7-Oct-2013 17:46

Just tried an interesting experiment. I have 3 browser windows open.

In the first is http://www.whatsmyip.org. It shows my current public IP address. Refreshing that page shows a different public IP after some irregular period. That IP address changes in a linear sequence.

In the second is the inbox of my webmail server. Each and every time that http://www.whatsmyip.org shows a different IP address, then a subsequent action on this page causes a logout (due to a change of IP address).

The third window is proxite.me. I am viewing my webmail account through this web proxy. That access is stable even when my public IP address has changed and the direct-connected webmail window has logged me off.

What this tells me is that there is nothing wrong with my webmail server. It is doing what it is designed to do.

It also confirms that the issue I face is entirely a consequence of a Vodafone network practice.

Why would Vodafone sequentially change a user's public IP address?

johnr

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#909436 7-Oct-2013 17:52

Still waiting for the email I requested as this should be happening

John

chevrolux

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#909440 7-Oct-2013 18:07

If you are getting a private address assigned to the WAN interface of your router that means Vodafone is performing NAT on your connection.
From there your traffic will be routed out to the internet with a public address that Vodafone has made available to it's 3G customers. Normally with CG NAT a set of customers would be on a private subnet that always uses the same public IP. Obviously though Vodafone choose to share their public addressing around. There is no real problem with this as your end-to-end connectivity has already been broken by the NAT that is implemented.
I think I remember seeing somewhere that Vodafone was allocated some of their public address space for 3G customers with the stipulation it be assigned dynamically.

At the end of the day if you want a "better quality" connection you will need to look at something other than Vodafone RBI. From what I have seen of it so far it is just glorified 3G with bigger data caps. I assume they probably have the ability to assign public addresses directly to customers but you will have to pay more.
And I say 'better quality' because for general internet use there is absolutely nothing wrong with NATing your customers.

RuralJohnny

33 posts

Geek

#909454 7-Oct-2013 18:40

chevrolux: ...
And I say 'better quality' because for general internet use there is absolutely nothing wrong with NATing your customers.

Whilst I understand that for run of the mill residential internet users, CGNAT is of no consequence to their use of the Internet, there are some wider issues here. Whether I am experiencing one of those wider issues is still be be discovered. It may be that the sequencing of my public IP address is an issue separate to CGNAT.

I do not agree that "there is nothing wrong with NATing your customers". That may yet prove to be the case, but I note from UK ISP BT's trial of CGNAT some issues about informing those customers affected. As BT itself says “some applications, such as online games, VPNs, file transfer (FTP) or dynamic DNS services … may have problems”. There also appears to be security risks associated with users sharing an IP address (Internet banking, illegal downloading of copyrighted materials,...) that customers need to be informed about.

I feel particularly aggrieved at the amount of time I have had to put in to this issue, time that I could ill afford to spend. All because Vodafone customer service insisted the issue was to do with my webmail server, with my router with almost anything other than what it is about - their use of proxies. The thing is that this is not the first time I have had a lengthy customer service issue with Voda. Their data angel was a data nightmare when it first came out. Speeds are poorer than what was promised. Latency at greater than 1 second is just not on. I could go on...

chevrolux

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#909496 7-Oct-2013 19:47

I agree that CG NAT isn't ideal but again, it is absolutely fine for probably 80% of internet users. All your normal cloud services will work no problem. You will be able to dial in to most PPTP or OpenVPN servers. Most mail systems will work fine. Yep FTP won't work. SIP will be hit and miss (unless the SIP proxy is at the ISPs core). Some games might not work as well. Also DDNS is an absolute no go. There would be no point as you couldn't run any sort of servers anyway.
This is NOT proxy issues as well. It is simply routing. Please stop referring to proxies.
But at the end of the day if you want a true internet experience you need to pay for it. There will be a RBI provider that will assign a static you a static IP and charge you for the privilege.

I do agree with your comments in regards to time spent diagnosing. Vodafone should have said you will get a private address. Although I do understand why they don't say this because people just simply don't understand what this means and it will just end up with more confused calls to the support center when they can't find any games on counter strike.

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hio77

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#909497 7-Oct-2013 19:47

this really does sound like a incorrect APN (assuming they apply to RBI)

ild expect, if vodafone are more than happy to hand out public ips to mobile devices on their default APN, then RBI should definitely have one (although ild assume it would be on a separate APN or something to insure priority)

afterall, isnt RBI meant to be a replacement for thoses who cant get UFB..

feel sorry for ya johnny, not only are you having to deal with CGNAT, but also having data fees ripped out of ya (in my opinion ofcourse.. )

as others have suggested, if a local WISP provider is around and able to provide you with a service.. chances are it will be better than what your currently getting, ild see about going with them!

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johnr

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#909498 7-Oct-2013 19:49

It's not APN I have already covered that

johnr

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#909784 8-Oct-2013 12:28

Update: This is working as designed / configured but this does not mean it's the best so we are making some changes

RuralJohnny has been updated and we will wait for feedback :)

John

Ragnor

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#909792 8-Oct-2013 12:42

johnr: It's not APN I have already covered that

Sounds like the internal to external ip address map should be more sticky

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