Chorus chair challenges telcos on slow VDSL uptake

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sbiddle

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#1661087 30-Oct-2016 21:14

yitz: "Forward looking cost model"... more like "copper tax"...

Who cares if there is a "copper tax"? (which really is the stupidest ever catchphrase). The UFB project has to be paid for, and as existing revenue from copper was always going to be used to fund the Chorus UFB rollout. There deal was unlike those of the LFC's

A forward looking cost model was always going to mean higher prices, and if people didn't want that they shouldn't have asked the Commerce Commission to move towards one.

sbiddle

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#1661088 30-Oct-2016 21:16

cynnicallemon:

But going back to the press release, I think Chorus need to wake up if they think they can keep milking the copper tax from users they seem to think are a captive audience.

If you don't like the prices then complain to the Commerce Commission. They set them, not Chorus.

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#1661094 30-Oct-2016 21:30

hio77:Look around at providers many moving onto DHCP rather than PPPoE we are starting to get the point to which overhead is such a tiny amount!

I completely agree with everything else in your post apart from this.

The reason why ISPs go for PPPoE is to allow them to dynamically provision them / groom them between handovers without needing a customer to restart their modem or have a lengthy outage as the DHCP renews.

IPoE/DHCP is a real pain in that regards as either you need a really short lease time when grooming or if you want to change the customers IP address activity but it does save 8 bytes per frame.

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#1661108 30-Oct-2016 22:07

BarTender:

hio77:Look around at providers many moving onto DHCP rather than PPPoE we are starting to get the point to which overhead is such a tiny amount!

I completely agree with everything else in your post apart from this.

The reason why ISPs go for PPPoE is to allow them to dynamically provision them / groom them between handovers without needing a customer to restart their modem or have a lengthy outage as the DHCP renews.

IPoE/DHCP is a real pain in that regards as either you need a really short lease time when grooming or if you want to change the customers IP address activity but it does save 8 bytes per frame.

Appreciate the thumbs up there.

i should expand on my comment on DHCP, overhead wise, massive.

DHCP when its on a stable connection and works perfectly, great!

DHCP in the situation where a new session is required, renew times are a PITA.

In my current ISP situation, my ISP has poor queuing on DHCP when i was last assessing it... when under large loads (say inappropriately configured bittorrent client from a guest...) the session would simply be voided, all routing hauled till a new ip was renewed.

Your mention of restarting the modem though, is this to force a new renew?

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cynnicallemon

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#1661109 30-Oct-2016 22:09

sbiddle:

Who cares if there is a "copper tax"? (which really is the stupidest ever catchphrase). The UFB project has to be paid for, and as existing revenue from copper was always going to be used to fund the Chorus UFB rollout. There deal was unlike those of the LFC's

Who cares if there is a "copper tax"? Possibly 400,000+ people in NZ if you care to ask each one.

I think we all know that us copper people help pay for the UFB install, question is who will pay for our installs when we (might) get fibre next decade - will the free install be there still?

And as said, those who remain on copper will pay a higher price as time goes by.

Why not make those who want fibre pay for the install. The answer is, if we did UFB would probably bomb. At the very least, fibre plans should attract a higher price to differentiate over slower copper plans or, make ADSL cheaper for those stuck on it.

hio77

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#1661126 30-Oct-2016 22:27

cynnicallemon:

I think we all know that us copper people help pay for the UFB install, question is who will pay for our installs when we (might) get fibre next decade - will the free install be there still?

And as said, those who remain on copper will pay a higher price as time goes by.

Why not make those who want fibre pay for the install. The answer is, if we did UFB would probably bomb. At the very least, fibre plans should attract a higher price to differentiate over slower copper plans or, make ADSL cheaper for those stuck on it.

eventually the free ride will end and you will pay for it. Just as you pay to have a copper service installed.

Those who recently have tried to get a copper installation have been shocked by being charged the full price.. Uptake will be hurt by that forsure.

unfortunately yes, it will be those who had to wait, more than likely the rural uptake for it will the worse off. Enjoy the fact that your urban even if you do have to pay for it?

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Talkiet

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#1661127 30-Oct-2016 22:32

cynnicallemon:

[snip]Why not make those who want fibre pay for the install. The answer is, if we did UFB would probably bomb.

Correct...

At the very least, fibre plans should attract a higher price to differentiate over slower copper plans or,

Same reason, at least in part.

make ADSL cheaper for those stuck on it.

Price is regulated, and asking a private company to sell at a loss is not what regulation is about.

Cheers - N

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#1661149 31-Oct-2016 06:39

cynnicallemon: Why not make those who want fibre pay for the install. The answer is, if we did UFB would probably bomb. At the very least, fibre plans should attract a higher price to differentiate over slower copper plans or, make ADSL cheaper for those stuck on it.

Why not make those who want VDSL pay for their own Master Filter install.
Why not since when there was a $10 premium on VDSL uptake is low.

There is no difference between the argument over a VDSL Master Filter vs UFB. The only difference is the installation price.

Master Filter is around $300 from Chorus to get a full lead in from the ETP to a new dedicated jackpoint.
And people balk at that saying they are being ripped off.

UFB the installer price is around $3k for the street to inside work including ONT install.

What is the chance that someone will pay 3k when they complain about $300... Not a s... show in hell.

Until we as geeks inform the non technical that this UFB thing costs a whole lot of money with skilled installer of a tricky and sensitive medium. New gear and an exponential growth of capacity across the country. All of this costs a non trivial amount of money.

Unfortunately the race to the bottom on price it does nothing to change the average punters view of the true costs of providing excellent quality internet.

The internet as we have it today is actually pretty good. Especially when you compare it to Australia (Now delivering cabinetisation like what Telecom did in 2008-2010) and the US (where you are effectively locked into really bad ADSL or a monopoly of the local cable provider). No other 1st world country has done what NZ has done in regards to separating the incumbent telecommunications company (Telecom in the day) into a wholesale company that owns the copper & DSLAMS and a retail company who is a completely separate entity listed on the stock market and consuming the same services from the wholesaler as everyone else is. It just simply hasn't happened anywhere else in the world.

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#1661152 31-Oct-2016 07:26

cynnicallemon:

sbiddle:

Who cares if there is a "copper tax"? (which really is the stupidest ever catchphrase). The UFB project has to be paid for, and as existing revenue from copper was always going to be used to fund the Chorus UFB rollout. There deal was unlike those of the LFC's

Who cares if there is a "copper tax"? Possibly 400,000+ people in NZ if you care to ask each one.

I think we all know that us copper people help pay for the UFB install, question is who will pay for our installs when we (might) get fibre next decade - will the free install be there still?

Free installs are only guaranteed until the end of the copper rollout across both Chorus and the LFC areas.

Copper also doesn't directly fund installs and I still don't understand why people to use the term "copper tax" which means absolutely nothing. Copper prices didn't go up, they simply didn't drop like some people expected they should do, mostly because a forward looking cost model which the Commerce Commission was legally obliged to follow set a regulated price which Chorus have no say into.

I assumed you lodged a submission with the Commerce Commission at the time over copper pricing? Becuase they're the one you should have your gripe with, not Chorus.

For all the ineptness that exists inside the Commerce Commission their decision on copper pricing was IMHO one of the smartest things they've actually done in recent years.

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#1661154 31-Oct-2016 07:36

cynnicallemon:

Why not make those who want fibre pay for the install. The answer is, if we did UFB would probably bomb. At the very least, fibre plans should attract a higher price to differentiate over slower copper plans or, make ADSL cheaper for those stuck on it.

Your logic really makes no sense.

You can't suggest on one hand that copper be made cheaper, while suggesting that UFB be priced higher. Pricing isn't just random figures, in the case of copper it's a regulated price that was determined looking at the costs of actually providing a network. In the case of UFB it's a price that was set by the Government (well CFH who basically are the Government) which while not technically regulated, is basically a regulated price. Entry level UFB was set to align with copper to encourage uptake, and the $1 per year increases in the entry level plans were set in ~2011 to alingn with expected copper increases once copper moved to a forward looking cost model.

By 2019 NZ will be one of the most connected countries in the world with Gigabit capabilities to over 80% of the population. That's a pretty amazing feat, and puts us years ahead of most other countries in the world. I also disagree about pricing being high - our pricing for products such as 1Gbps now are far better than many other countries with such offerings now, particularly the US which has such terrible internet offerings.

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#1662905 2-Nov-2016 19:29

BarTender:
What is the chance that someone will pay 3k when they complain about $300... Not a s... show in hell.

Until we as geeks inform the non technical that this UFB thing costs a whole lot of money with skilled installer of a tricky and sensitive medium. New gear and an exponential growth of capacity across the country. All of this costs a non trivial amount of money.

Unfortunately the race to the bottom on price it does nothing to change the average punters view of the true costs of providing excellent quality internet.

I'd be quite happy to pay that $3K for a quality unlimited internet connection fee, especially as the "distribution" fibre for Pokeno passes by my verge and Chorus insist copper is my only option in my brand new built house... and want $2600 to link the 50cm between my cat5 lead (already wired to my boundary) and the trunk they just RElaid copper in to sort a neighbours crappy phone signal 😡

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pjamieson

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#1700031 7-Jan-2017 21:46

I think most errors have been covered (Spark's agenda, the supposed "Copper Tax", VDSL distance changes, ability to improve ADSL/VDSL, future deployment etc). But I will add (all public info):

1) Due to regulation, Chorus cannot force RSP's to take the mandatory Splitter installs. A $10pm / 20 months deal was created for those wanting this proper quality install (it's still available).

2) With the 998 Band plan changes & DLM it was decided by most RSP's that Splitters were no longer needed (still better than DSL2+). Also Customers may already have VDSL grade splitters or could install their own (only cost $20) to get greater speed.

3) If the OP wants to DM me their address I may be able to add more info to try and help.

PS: Troy Baird's info, respect!

hio77

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#1700090 7-Jan-2017 23:41

pjamieson:

PS: Troy Baird's info, respect!

Much appreciate the callout from your position there! :)

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