Dark Copper, why can't it be used for cheap?

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Dark Copper, why can't it be used for cheap?

hellonearthisman

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#27275 20-Oct-2008 15:52

I was just thinking about getting FTTH again and was looking as getting two core and having one lit and one dark for future use.
That made me think, there must be alot of Dark copper in NZ, because when a line is installed, they put two cables in the ground, in case one line breaks they can use the 2nd as a fix. Hardly any homes in NZ use two phone lines but they most have them but are unused dark wire. It it was used it could double the speed of the net and make the network more robust.

Then I recalled, the real cost to have the 2nd line lit and went back to the fibre numbers and mumbled about monopoly squares to the walls.

tonyhughes

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#172288 20-Oct-2008 16:06

hellonearthisman: I was just thinking about getting FTTH again and was looking as getting two core and having one lit and one dark for future use.
That made me think, there must be alot of Dark copper in NZ, because when a line is installed, they put two cables in the ground, in case one line breaks they can use the 2nd as a fix. Hardly any homes in NZ use two phone lines but they most have them but are unused dark wire. It it was used it could double the speed of the net and make the network more robust.

Then I recalled, the real cost to have the 2nd line lit and went back to the fibre numbers and mumbled about monopoly squares to the walls.

How would it "double the speed of the net" ?

If you are talking about DSL, you would simply be creating a second DSL connection - you still need to aggregate them somehow, and that aint happening with a poxy little $60 DSL modem.

How would it "make the network more robust" ?

How many peoples DSL connections go down because of the last mile?
An extra pair carrying service into my home is not going to increase reliability for any other customer.

What about the number of ports required in cabinets/exchanges - you are proposing the doubling of some expensive equipment, not to mention the maintenance, power requirements, space considerations etc.

Who is going to pay for that?

Not you I'd wager...

Hardly any homes in NZ use two phone lines

Source please.

tonyhughes

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#172289 20-Oct-2008 16:06

hellonearthisman: I was just thinking about getting FTTH again and was looking as getting two core and having one lit and one dark for future use.
That made me think, there must be alot of Dark copper in NZ, because when a line is installed, they put two cables in the ground, in case one line breaks they can use the 2nd as a fix. Hardly any homes in NZ use two phone lines but they most have them but are unused dark wire. It it was used it could double the speed of the net and make the network more robust.

Then I recalled, the real cost to have the 2nd line lit and went back to the fibre numbers and mumbled about monopoly squares to the walls.

Hardly any homes in NZ use two phone lines

Source please.

hellonearthisman

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#172295 20-Oct-2008 16:18

Source, was from my socio-economic-class (may mates) and hardly any of them have two landlines.

It would mean have two DSL connections, to two providers, so it can get around some of that last mile stuff.
The phone system is scalable, but your right there would not be much saving.

Dream crushed, thanks, now I can focus on a different one. Cure to hichup maybe :)

Bung

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#172296 20-Oct-2008 16:24

hellonearthisman:That made me think, there must be alot of Dark copper in NZ, because when a line is installed, they put two cables in the ground, in case one line breaks they can use the 2nd as a fix.

One underground lead-in cable with 2 pairs doesn't mean 2 pairs any further back than the first connection box. Spares in the street cable are shared.

NonprayingMantis

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#172463 21-Oct-2008 10:02

hellonearthisman: Source, was from my socio-economic-class (may mates) and hardly any of them have two landlines.

It would mean have two DSL connections, to two providers, so it can get around some of that last mile stuff.
The phone system is scalable, but your right there would not be much saving.

Dream crushed, thanks, now I can focus on a different one. Cure to hichup maybe :)

Hardly any students have 2 landline connections? What a surprise. Nice choice of sample there. How about all the people that run small businesses from home? Or people who have a granny flat or similar?

raytaylor

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#172567 21-Oct-2008 17:07

If you were running power over ethernet, the line resistance causes a voltage drop over distance.
Use the spare pair inside the cat5 in parallel and that resistance drops and the voltage is higher than it would be at the other end.

Would the same be true for DSL? If you use the spare copper pair in your cable coming from the cabinet / exchange in parallel, that would eliminate a good amount of resistance over the line and I would guess your modem would sync at a faster rate - maybe even extend the max distance of 5km to maybe 7km because the cable is 'thicker'.

If my theory is true, that would only be a good thing for those in the area of ADSL1 speeds when connecting using ADSL2.

Ray Taylor

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cyril7

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#172569 21-Oct-2008 17:21

Hi Ray, stick to the day job, the DC resistance of a circuit is of consequence to AC signals in the DSL band, however not as much as the inductive and capacitive properties. If you were to parallel up two pairs of twisted pair between the DSLAM and your modem you are most likely to see a reduction in performance not a improvement as you will introduce a odd characteristic impedance that the terminations at each end are not designed to optimally match to.

Cyril

webup

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#172677 22-Oct-2008 08:05

Is Fibre optic getting popular in NZ now?

sbiddle

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#172679 22-Oct-2008 08:08

Maybe the solution is to stop people making voice calls over copper. If it's a data only connection then there won't be any spectrum management issues!

willnz

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#172690 22-Oct-2008 08:43

Yes, if we could all stop bloody talking we could get on with what we really need to do - surf the intarweb! (on both our home computers, and our mobile 'phones'!)