Chorus UFB install questions - rural, trenching, adding low voltage

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phrozenpenguin

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#306214 4-Jul-2023 23:03

I'm in the process of getting UFB installed to a rural property and have a few questions - it has been a while since I last did this and it was with Enable, not Chorus.

The ideal route from the point where the Chorus point is at the boundary is along the side of the section (on edge of shared road that goes to 3 houses) before curving right to cross a the driveway and into the garage. This would be gravel, not tarmac.

Another option may be to utilise the existing copper connection route (not sure if this is in conduit)? If they did this am I likely to lose the copper connection (if they use it as a draw wire)? They may be able to get to the ?dmarc (box on house with copper in) but then the internal wiring is not in conduit; I think the CAT5e (used as telephone cable) internally goes up the wall and between two floors - not in conduit.

I have been reading a bunch of the Chorus PDFs but am not sure what to expect. The Chorus tech has to drive 2 hours to get to this property so I want to do as much as I can to ensure it is done efficiently as well as properly.

Some other questions

if they trench am I likely to be able to drop in an additional cable e.g. ethernet or direct bury low voltage cable? We would like to get some power to the boundary, very close to where the fibre point is! Happy to help with digging if we get this!
if they trench will they use conduit or direct bury? If they direct bury, how strong/reliable is this?
is there anything I can or should do to get ready or setup?

quickymart

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#3100010 4-Jul-2023 23:21

I highly doubt they will dig a trench for you - but you can always dig one yourself and drop in the green pipe in the process (with a draw-wire), which may make the install a little easier for them.

If you don't want to dig a trench (I'm assuming your existing copper line is underground) they will follow that pathway as closely as possible.

They may be able to use the existing copper line as a draw wire depending on the setup, but once they do the fibre line will be the one you're connected to.

phrozenpenguin

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#3100018 4-Jul-2023 23:47

quickymart:

I highly doubt they will dig a trench for you - but you can always dig one yourself and drop in the green pipe in the process (with a draw-wire), which may make the install a little easier for them.

If you don't want to dig a trench (I'm assuming your existing copper line is underground) they will follow that pathway as closely as possible.

They may be able to use the existing copper line as a draw wire depending on the setup, but once they do the fibre line will be the one you're connected to.

Hmm, I thought I read about them trenching in one of the many documents, but may be wrong.

Yes our existing copper line is underground to a ?demarc on the side of the house. Then it goes internally but is not in conduit. How far would Chorus likely follow this? If they can install the fibre ETP instead of the copper ?demarc AND use the existing copper/ethernet cable as draw wires then that could work. But I don't want to loose the copper connection if possible...until we KNOW fibre is all sorted. The existing copper line goes under a landscaped garden and a deck and a pathway so not great to dig up!

Wheelbarrow01

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#3100020 5-Jul-2023 00:13

There's too many variables to provide an answer online - now watch me attempt to do it anyway 🤣

It very much depends on what the installer finds when he arrives at the property. It also depends on how the property has been categorised - your address could be listed as FIAD (fibre in a day [single appointment]), or ABC (Agree, Build, Connect) - which happens over a number of appointments.

In your situation, ABC would likely be the most suitable option as you'd meet a scoper onsite to work out the best approach based on the site, and you can agree on how the work can be done. Next the build crew (if required) will turn up to carry out the civil work from the boundary to the side of the dwelling, and in the 3rd appointment the ONT install and actual connection will take place.

Having said that, 3 appointments could be considered an inconvenience for all parties given your reported location.

You mention a shared road - if it's a private ROW that your dwelling is a party to, Chorus may be obligated to build network to the boundary of the other 3 dwellings/sections at the same time. While not a bad thing, it does complicate the work and almost guarantees it will need to be done via the ABC method above.

The standard installation methods in order of preference are:

Aerial - not an option here as we only do aerial like for like (ie if the copper is already aerially fed)
Existing conduit - could be an option depending on distance and number/degree of any bends in the existing conduit. Condition of the conduit is also a factor (crushed/blocked/flooded). If using the existing duct is possible, the copper will almost certainly need to be removed and/or used as a draw wire. This is of little consequence now - on June 1 this year, Chorus invoked Copper Stop-Sell everywhere UFB fibre is available. This means if any property has fibre to the boundary, the occupant cannot request to connect a new (or reconnect a dormant) copper connection - they must connect to fibre or choose another option (fixed wireless, satellite etc).
Surface mount cabling - could also be possible - even for only part of the route - if a suitable fence etc exists.
Trenching - the least preferred option, and given the lack of concrete or asphalt, it would likely be soft surface shallow trenching using a chainsaw-like device, not a full open trench. In a rural setting, if shallow trenching is used we'd likely drop in a ruggedised cable without a conduit (except where crossing under a gravel driveway etc)
Some installs may require a combination of the methods above depending on topography.

If you want an open trench into which you wish to place other services, you'd need to arrange this yourself. You can certainly place other services in a communal trench as long as the separation criteria are met:

• If power is in the same trench, this should be laid at least 100mm deeper than our Chorus network, with protection material laid in between.
• Gas and water and other services must be at least 300mm away (horizontally) from the power and comms lines, preferably in a separate trench.

More info on Trenching: https://www.chorus.co.nz/docs/develop-with-chorus/chorus-npd-guide-to-lead-ins-and-trenching.pdf

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

Wheelbarrow01

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#3100022 5-Jul-2023 00:23

This may also help:

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

phrozenpenguin

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#3100023 5-Jul-2023 00:31

@Wheelbarrow01 that is super useful, thanks. Very concise way to explain the myriad of docs I was reading.

In particular the "stop sell" was useful because it means there is no point me being precious about the existing copper connection as I won't be able to use it as a backup in the future if needed.

I suspect we will be 2) or 4) or a combo.

Perhaps you can help with the "other" half of the piece, from the external ETP to where we want the ONT internally. If method 2) is used then the ETP would be in the same place as copper. That is on a bedroom wall and we do not want the ONT just through the wall. The existing copper goes up the wall and horizontally between floors and then is available in the roof space. So if existing cat5e can be used as a draw wire then everything should be good. If it can't and it needs a "proper" duct then that is limiting.

When the fibre is in the roofspace it can "easily" get to where we want to get it to. Appreciate it is hard to offer advise over the internet, and the above might not even make sense, but any input appreciated. One visit compared to three is much better all round!

raytaylor

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#3100030 5-Jul-2023 06:53

phrozenpenguin:

horizontally between floors

If a cable has more than two bends in it within a wall - or goes horizontally and not directly up the wall to the attic, you can almost guarantee it cant be used as a pull wire.

Cat5 doesnt flow smoothly when its bending while coming out of a timber stud.

The installer will confirm the best way to get the ONT where you want it. They may also supply you the opticat cable and you can hire an electrician to run the cable for you between the two points. I havent quite figured out how the chorus system works as I believe the installer is still working to the standard free install procedures once they reach the house and the rural quoted/estimated payment only covers the build work outside the property boundary.

Ray Taylor

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quickymart

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#3100040 5-Jul-2023 07:52

phrozenpenguin:

@Wheelbarrow01 that is super useful, thanks. Very concise way to explain the myriad of docs I was reading.

In particular the "stop sell" was useful because it means there is no point me being precious about the existing copper connection as I won't be able to use it as a backup in the future if needed.

I suspect we will be 2) or 4) or a combo.

Perhaps you can help with the "other" half of the piece, from the external ETP to where we want the ONT internally. If method 2) is used then the ETP would be in the same place as copper. That is on a bedroom wall and we do not want the ONT just through the wall. The existing copper goes up the wall and horizontally between floors and then is available in the roof space. So if existing cat5e can be used as a draw wire then everything should be good. If it can't and it needs a "proper" duct then that is limiting.

When the fibre is in the roofspace it can "easily" get to where we want to get it to. Appreciate it is hard to offer advise over the internet, and the above might not even make sense, but any input appreciated. One visit compared to three is much better all round!

If you're talking about internal wiring/cabling, you would arrange that yourself - usually via an electrician, but again it depends on what the setup at your property is.

phrozenpenguin

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#3100071 5-Jul-2023 09:22

Thanks @raytaylor and @quickymart.

I presume if they supplied the Opticat cable then they would have to come back to "liven" it up.

@quickymart I am talking about internal wiring to the ONT - in order to get the ONT in a suitable position (i.e. garage wall near to ethernet) as opposed to where the current telephone line enters (on a bedroom wall with no power or ethernet.). I understand that the rest of the house wiring would be my responsibility but assumed/hoped there would be some flexibility on the installer?

It is much easier for me to get an electrician or do things myself than it is to get the Chorus installer back multiple times - but it isn't super clear what they would need internally.

quickymart

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#3100236 5-Jul-2023 14:58

Fair enough, I'd have a talk to the tech when they arrive and explain what you're trying to do. They'll be able to tell you what they can (and cannot) do and then you should have a clearer view on the next steps from there.

Chorusnz

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#3100256 5-Jul-2023 15:32

Just to echo what's been said a few times and throw my weight in here a little bit 😄

The tech wont do any kind of wiring inside the walls like the existing copper. Hauling Fibre through wall beams is just a non starter.
If you want the Fibre into a roof space he should be able to extend the ETP up on the outside of the house. That way we could run and drop the cable down into whatever room you desire. Obviously that method leaves you with a conduit on the side of the house and a cable down an internal wall. Fine for some, not acceptable for others 🤷‍♂️.

Alternatively you could discuss with the tech an alternative run for the Fibre cable that brings it up next to the Garage wall where you want the ONT situated. He can install a new ETP and simply pop the optical cable through to a suitable spot inside.

Just be clear on what you want, but understand that there are limits to what can be done by our technicians. So be ready to discuss and come to an agreement. Any issues feel free to give us a ping and we are happy to help. ^Richard

phrozenpenguin

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#3100428 5-Jul-2023 21:53

Thanks again. I appreciate this is all easier with a tech on the ground, but wanting to make stuff as easy as possible so done in as few trips as possible! I understand they can't do everything/anything. Thanks for all the intel, will see how it goes.

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phrozenpenguin

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#3101769 9-Jul-2023 22:46

Just an update on this. Two Chorus tech's visited and did the entire setup in one visit.

Ahead of time I installed conduit (with a draw cord) in the loft space from the place we wanted the ONT and then laid it to where I hoped the fibre would enter the building - but didn't fix it down, so this was changeable.

Our old copper wasn't in conduit/they couldn't use it, so they dug a trench with handtools along the boundary of the property, to the edge of the garage. They installed conduit and ETP on the wall and entered the roofspace where I suggested, and then used the existing conduit I had setup. They did comment on how that wasn't required but they were happy to use it. I hope the direct-bury cable they use is strong, as there are a lot of rocks in the ground it is buried in!

They were very professional, did a good job and didn't mind me watching and asking questions! They were totally not convinced with my Edgerouter/Unifi setup, and told me on many occasions that I should have been sent a modem; and showed my pictures of a Spark device! It was also useful that the actual tech doing the job contacted me beforehand, so I had sent him pictures of the property and some sketches of what I expected was possible.

Wheelbarrow01

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#3102479 11-Jul-2023 00:08

phrozenpenguin:

I hope the direct-bury cable they use is strong, as there are a lot of rocks in the ground it is buried in!

Yes the ruggedised cable is pretty tough. I subjected a sample to a bit of a torture test. Tried cutting it with kitchen scissors - it laughed in the face of that danger. Tried garden shears (the type used on rose bushes) and again didn't really do anything. Placed in on a concrete surface and put my sharpened serrated-edge spade on top and jumped on it repeatedly - some surface scratching to the outer sheath but nothing to write home about. Then tried some long handled loppers and it just sort of went between the blades awkwardly but they didn't cut it - perhaps they just weren't sharp enough.

Rocks in the ground should be no problem. However anything mechanically driven will likely do damage eg a digger, petrol driven rotary hoe, post hole borer etc. They do contain a tracer wire though so they can be easily located with a cable locator device.

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

elduce

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#3106409 20-Jul-2023 21:43

well they must have started using a new type of ribbonet or fixed fibre service lead from the type I repair every day😜