Broadband - What the government should have done!

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DonGould

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Topic # 7746 6-May-2006 18:56

"Good afternoon Glaxo Welcome, how may I direct your call?"
"Hi, this is Helen Clark, can you pass a message to your CEO that he might want to watch the 6pm news?"
"Sure, who did you say you were?"
"Helen Clark, Prime Minister"

Three hours later...

"One News reports that the Cabinet has decided to regulate that Glaxo Welcome will open it's distrubution center to the Red Cross so that care packages can be sent to vitims of the flue epidemic that has yet to eventuate."

---------------------------------------------------------

Yes you're quite right if you're thinking that my presentation above is silly.

In response to a potential epidemic the government set up a web site with advise for people, set up a help line and sent out information packs. They didn't ring up a major supplier of products to the market and tell them that they were going to be regulated for not taking enough action to facilitate preperation.

Can anyone tell me why the government didn't write such an information pack for every New Zealand home telling us why we should all be paying for a broadband connection each month?

Where is my fridge maginet?

Frankly if I was TG I'd be looking for a new job this week. Perhaps in a country where you get to run a company without this kind of government intervention.

Cheers Don

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Reply # 35095 6-May-2006 19:16

While I do believe government intervention was not the correct cause of action, and is largely unfair to wards Telecom, TG I think you will find has the complete support of the Telecom Board and also her staff.

Going a little off topic here, and yes I do know you dislike that =P (from other threads), I think it would be only fair if Telstra be forced to open up their network to other ISPs and Telco’s in Wellington and Christchurch?? Of course I would rather none of this to happen, hopefully Telecom can stall LLU for 3 or more years, then we may get a National Government, and I know it may be wishful thinking, but this whole thing may go away!!

proLLU

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Reply # 35100 6-May-2006 20:16

I was just wondering which party was in power when Telecom, then a State Owned Enterprise, was sold to Bell Atlantic and Ameritech in 1990? Though I believe privatisation is good, I do not believe selling the local loop as part of the Telecom sale was a good idea - especially so if it is sold to an non-NZ entity.

Back to the topic of this thread, I believe Government intervention in a country is good. If you were to look at Singapore, you'd find that almost everything is Government-controlled in some way and heavily regulated. They are now enjoying a lot of success, and multi-national companies are flocking there to set up their headquarters and for investment. Singapore was before its independence and for a short while after that, a very poor country, plagued by communism, crime, lack of natural resources and land. But after Lee Kuan Yew (then PM) planned everything for the country, much like communism except less extreme, prohibited workers union, etc, they have grown tremendously, so much so they are now ahead of NZ and the gap is ever widening.

In conclusion, I believe the decision made by the Government on Wednesday is right, and a step forward. I also believe the Government should take ownership of the local loop, much like the Singapore Government taking charge over public facilities like the airport, transport system, which would cause major damage to the country's economy once taken hold of by foreign companies.

I don't see why Government intervention and regulation will stop investment, It is highly unlikely an outsider (i.e. foreign companies) would help improve NZ, and think of the public before their own profit. The only reason they would put money (invest) in the country is so they can get MORE out of the country, i.e. a net gain on their part and hence a net loss for the residents. They are sucking money out of NZers,.

sbiddle

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Reply # 35101 6-May-2006 20:26

nzbnw: While I do believe government intervention was not the correct cause of action, and is largely unfair to wards Telecom, TG I think you will find has the complete support of the Telecom Board and also her staff.

Going a little off topic here, and yes I do know you dislike that =P (from other threads), I think it would be only fair if Telstra be forced to open up their network to other ISPs and Telco’s in Wellington and Christchurch?? Of course I would rather none of this to happen, hopefully Telecom can stall LLU for 3 or more years, then we may get a National Government, and I know it may be wishful thinking, but this whole thing may go away!!

Telstra's cable network in Wgtn and Chch is already open to other ISP's who sell a cable modem service. There are 2 other ISP's I am aware of that that offer cable modem plans and both offer unlimited national traffic which is a big selling point for some corporates.

nzbnw

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Reply # 35102 6-May-2006 20:43

The Labour Party was in power at that time.

I believe that LLU is not the correct solution for New Zealand as it enables others to take advantage of Telecom's PSTN network, and is an invasion of property rights, a right we as New Zealanders expect. New Zealand already has enough sheep with out our Government becoming one to, and trying to follow everything the rest of the world does. We should pride our self’s on being different, leaders not followers.

Kiwis, need to be more aggressive and support New Zealand business where possible, including that of Telecom, instead of foreign national companies where possible. In saying that I have no problem with completion or foreign companies.

LLU is in no way fair to those who hold the property rights.

nzbnw

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Reply # 35103 6-May-2006 20:46

sbiddle:
nzbnw: While I do believe government intervention was not the correct cause of action, and is largely unfair to wards Telecom, TG I think you will find has the complete support of the Telecom Board and also her staff.

Going a little off topic here, and yes I do know you dislike that =P (from other threads), I think it would be only fair if Telstra be forced to open up their network to other ISPs and Telco’s in Wellington and Christchurch?? Of course I would rather none of this to happen, hopefully Telecom can stall LLU for 3 or more years, then we may get a National Government, and I know it may be wishful thinking, but this whole thing may go away!!

Telstra's cable network in Wgtn and Chch is already open to other ISP's who sell a cable modem service. There are 2 other ISP's I am aware of that that offer cable modem plans and both offer unlimited national traffic which is a big selling point for some corporates.

Yes I was aware, but what I am not sure about is, can other ISPs install their own equipment in Telstra Exchanges?? For give me but i am not familiar with Telstra Cable network, or exactly how it works etc.

Cheers

proLLU

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Reply # 35104 6-May-2006 21:00

nzbnw, from your posts on Geekzone it is very obvious you are saying what you are saying out of your own personal interests - your shares in Telecom, or Telecom paying you in some way.

Telecom was given chances after chances to improve their services, and provide reliable services for ALL NZers. That failed. Miserably I must add. Why are they investing in 3G, and NGN when there are still people in the rural areas in dire need of some form of connectivity? If Telecom were really the saint Theresa Gattungs claimed to be, they should have laid fibre to provide ADSL to more people in the rural areas. Once again, it is fair for the Government to unbundle the local loop because Telecom was given another chance in 2003 to prove their case that LLU is not for NZ. Now, it is chance the other ISPs are given THEIR chance to prove LLU is for NZ. I guess, LLU can be reversed should the other ISPs not prove their case too. :) But I am quite confident LLU will work, because it has, for many reasons. Australia which also have a widely distributed population (low density) like NZ have shown us that LLU worked for them, and I see no reason why NZ should be different.

I agree fully that NZ is not followers, but neither is NZ a leader. When one is not a follower, nor a leader, one is a fool. That is to say, other countries are looking at NZ and scratching their heads thinking why the heck did NZ do something they would never even want to consider. But Labour's decision on Wednesday has proved that they have learnt, and it is time they shape NZ into something proud and looked up upon by other countries, it once was.

I have never looked at Telecom as an NZ-owned company, for one, because they aren't. I read somewhere that only 25% of the shareholders are NZer, with the remnant Australians or from other countries - i.e. Ameritech and Bell Atlantic.

Yes, it is a breach of private property, but because their private property affects the majority of the public, it had to be done. Their predatory pricing and actions also warranted the Government's intervention, much like city councils having no choice but to take a part of your land to build wider roads. It is pretty much the same, because Telecom is still paid by the other ISPs for access to the local loop. I must also add that the "private property" of Telecom has also sucked dry many of NZers money. $42/month for line rental is just too much.

DonGould

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Reply # 35105 6-May-2006 21:13

nzbnw: While I do believe government intervention was not the correct cause of action, and is largely unfair to wards Telecom, TG I think you will find has the complete support of the Telecom Board and also her staff.

Is her staff and board going to continue having her support. I know I wouldn't want to feel like nothing more than a pawn in someone elses chess game. That is exactly what Helen and co are lining TG up as.

nzbnw: Going a little off topic here, and yes I do know you dislike that =P (from other threads),

If you think your following comments are heading off topic then I can see why threads go off topic so often... you have little idea what the topic is, so keeping to it isn't possible.

In this instance, I think your following comments are right ON topic

nzbnw: I think it would be only fair if Telstra be forced to open up their network to other ISPs and Telco’s in Wellington and Christchurch??

You'll get my support on that point any day of the week. I 100% agree with you!

If the government are going to interfere in this way then they should keep an even playing field by enforcing the same level of imposition on all players.

In line with this I also think that the government should be regulating that no provider may dictate how a customer users their service.

So, if I want to take my power connection and resell power to my neighbours I should be allowed. If I want to take my telephone service and resell it to my neighbours I should be allowed. If I want to take my internet service and resell it to my neighbours I should be allowed.

As I would then become a reseller the same rule then also applies to me... my customers should be allowed to resell as well.

Printing 'Not for individual resale' on a package should be not be legal.

nzbnw: Of course I would rather none of this to happen, hopefully Telecom can stall LLU for 3 or more years, then we may get a National Government, and I know it may be wishful thinking, but this whole thing may go away!!

How can we be assured that a National government would do any different? As I understood it they infact supported this policy move.

Cheers Don

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nzbnw

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Reply # 35106 6-May-2006 21:26

"nzbnw, from your posts on Geekzone it is very obvious you are saying what you are saying out of your own personal interests - your shares in Telecom, or Telecom paying you in some way."

A) Yes i can confirm for you, I am a loyal employee, but to me this is much more than just about Telecom. I believe in free business, and I would back just about any company put in a similar position.

"Telecom was given chances after chances to improve their services, and provide reliable services for ALL NZers. That failed. Miserably I must add. Why are they investing in 3G, and NGN when there are still people in the rural areas in dire need of some form of connectivity? If Telecom were really the saint Theresa Gattungs claimed to be, they should have laid fibre to provide ADSL to more people in the rural areas. Once again, it is fair for the Government to unbundle the local loop because Telecom was given another chance in 2003 to prove their case that LLU is not for NZ. Now, it is chance the other ISPs are given THEIR chance to prove LLU is for NZ. I guess, LLU can be reversed should the other ISPs not prove their case too. :) But I am quite confident LLU will work, because it has, for many reasons. Australia which also have a widely distributed population (low density) like NZ have shown us that LLU worked for them, and I see no reason why NZ should be different."

A) Not exactly fair, Telecom was give a chance, but the government as DonGould Says The Government didn't exactly help provide New Zealand’s with a reason to migrate to Broadband. New Zealand has one of the highest levels of Business broadband uptake in the OECD; businesses are the ones who are going to provide New Zealand with economic growth, not your average consumer, one of the main reasons behind the government’s decision to open the local loop. LLU is hardly a success story you make it out o be in Australia, and I hold a great deal of respect for Telsta for standing up to the ACCC and the Australian Government. Telecom also account for 20% of shares traded in the NZSX on an average day (in terms of turn over). Huge risks one must say.

"I agree fully that NZ is not followers, but neither is NZ a leader. When one is not a follower, nor a leader, one is a fool. That is to say, other countries are looking at NZ and scratching their heads thinking why the heck did NZ do something they would never even want to consider. But Labour's decision on Wednesday has proved that they have learnt, and it is time they shape NZ into something proud and looked up upon by other countries, it once was."

A)The New Zealand Government was a leader, when New Zealand was scraping regulation in the 1990's, but now I feel the Labour Party leaders are just sheep, follow the group, or but it this way, If one was to jump of the Harbour Bridge, would you?? New Zealand can expect little more from a government who punishes the successful.

"I have never looked at Telecom as an NZ-owned company, for one, because they aren't. I read somewhere that only 25% of the shareholders are NZer, with the remnant Australians or from other countries - i.e. Ameritech and Bell Atlantic."

"Yes, it is a breach of private property, but because their private property affects the majority of the public, it had to be done. Their predatory pricing and actions also warranted the Government's intervention, much like city councils having no choice but to take a part of your land to build wider roads. It is pretty much the same, because Telecom is still paid by the other ISPs for access to the local loop. I must also add that the "private property" of Telecom has also sucked dry many of NZers money. $42/month for line rental is just too much."

A) You can say that all you like, but Telecom employees many New Zealanders and as a result has a New Zealand culture. Roading I don’t see as relevant, try comparing to another network. And in any case at lease compensation is provided to those, even if not fair compensation to those who are affected. Yes I am fully aware that Telecom will be paid for access to the loop, but unlike in a free market, Telecom can not set the price.

DonGould

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Reply # 35107 6-May-2006 21:32

nzbnw:The Labour Party was in power at that time.

Yes. It's a disgrace that the Labour Party would sell a national asset to a private entity and then a decade and a half later regulate to take control of that entity rather than simply purchasing it back. That's not democratic.

nzbnw:I believe that LLU is not the correct solution for New Zealand as it enables others to take advantage of Telecom's PSTN network, and is an invasion of property rights, a right we as New Zealanders expect.

Also agree. The precedent that this sets is completely unacceptable in a country that claims to believe in freedom.

nzbnw: Kiwis, need to be more aggressive and support New Zealand business where possible, including that of Telecom, instead of foreign national companies where possible. In saying that I have no problem with completion or foreign companies.

Ok. Time to get a grip here...

Kiwi's are supporting New Zealand business. To the tune of over $4 billion dollars pa in the case of Telecom.

nzbnw: LLU is in no way fair to those who hold the property rights.

Agreed. You don't just sell something then tell the new ower what to do with it because as a political group you don't like what the new owner is doing with it.

In this case it's worse because Telecom is maily owned by New Zealanders. Sadly for New Zealanders, most of us won't corolate what Helen and Co have done at the next election and will vote them back in.

Cheers Don

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bonkiebonks

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Reply # 35108 6-May-2006 21:39

I will vote Labour for the next and coming elections. Go Helen!

I think all these arguments come down to greed on Telecom's part. Had they charged a little less, and provided a little more reliability on my broadband, I wouldn't cared much about LLU.

It's sad to think I had to choose the 56k version when I was watching a TV3 video on their website - and that is an NZ hosted site. :(

btw, I'm on 3.5M, so if I could actually get my full 3.5M, I'm quite happy to pay for it. To be quite frank, it isn't too expensive.

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Reply # 35109 6-May-2006 21:40

How can we be assured that a National government would do any different? As I understood it they infact supported this policy move.

Cheers Don

Ok. Time to get a grip here...

Kiwi's are supporting New Zealand business. To the tune of over $4 billion dollars pa in the case of Telecom.

It is my understanding both the Act and National Party do not agree with this.

That aside it is great to behaving the conversation with all of you, and Don you have some really good points, always interesting to read your posts.

Yes New Zealanders are supporting Telecom, and I hope this will continue. When I stated that I was referring in general, Kiwis need to support kiwis more often.

nzbnw

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Reply # 35110 6-May-2006 21:46

bonkiebonks: I will vote Labour for the next and coming elections. Go Helen!

I think all these arguments come down to greed on Telecom's part. Had they charged a little less, and provided a little more reliability on my broadband, I wouldn't cared much about LLU.

It's sad to think I had to choose the 56k version when I was watching a TV3 video on their website - and that is an NZ hosted site. :(

btw, I'm on 3.5M, so if I could actually get my full 3.5M, I'm quite happy to pay for it. To be quite frank, it isn't too expensive.

While I do support Telecom, I do not always agree with everything they do. Yes higher speeds would be nice for everyone. We have full speed ADSL at work, on speed tests from nzdsl I get 3.6down, and 5XX something up, so even 7.6 is not going to be a reality in the future. Of course ADSL2 will change all this.

In Regard to greed? I don;t beleive so, again I will repeat this again, Telecom like any other company is only trying to maximse its profit, and go of them for doing so, good on Vodafone and TCL also.

Cheers

proLLU

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Reply # 35112 6-May-2006 21:55

If you read http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/archives/013937.html you will find that despite unbundling being a major regulatory issue, many of the top anti-regulation advocates, as David Farrar puts it, are fully supportive of what the Government had done.

It goes to show many are fed up with the attitude Telecom has put up, and the predatory actions they've been taking. I, for one, cannot put up with the lies Telecom say. Look at what they said about the leak!! It's just totally unacceptable.

Liars never go far, look at where it got Telecom.

nzbnw

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Reply # 35114 6-May-2006 22:19

Well Just look at your user name "proLLU" doesn’t convey an open mind does it now?

I do not believe Telecom has an "attitude" problem. Telecom sees broadband as an import part of our business plans within New Zealand. We aim to provide New Zealanders a great service that will be enhanced with the introduction of NGN / NGB.

In regard to the leaked report, Telecom has followed legal advice, and has not mislead anyone. Telecom is paying the price of being successful within the New Zealand Market and now must put up with the prospect of other providers leaching off its network.

Leaches, not innovators. Woosh is an innovator and so it Vodafone, by providing alterative networks.

I guess we will all see the effects of LLU in time, and we will all be able to reflect on our thoughts at the time.

nzbnw

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Reply # 35115 6-May-2006 22:43

Come to think of it proLLU, I think you are a little off topic (Cheers Don =P), the Topic is "What the government should have done! - Where is my fridge maginet? "

Ok Let me break that down for you, key words, Government should have done, not what is said it is going to do!!

(Please be aware, I am not trying to have ago at you, i am trying to invalidate some of your ideas, no hard feelings)

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