Virtual machine needed

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OwenWatson

91 posts

Master Geek

#306485 27-Jul-2023 19:04

[posted on behalf]

I am a retired 81 year old pensioner, still completing and publishing my life's research work (unpaid). I am totally dependent on a very old PC running XP with software such as Photoshop CS2 and Office Pro. I fear that one day the PC will fail to boot, leaving me high and dry, with nothing better to do but sit and watch the telly all day. The installed software cannot be re-installed even though I have the original disks (out of service and only now available on subscription with I cannot afford). I am also dependent on the full implementation of DOS which XP provides. This enables me to shell out to command line operations such as grep, bat files, and software that can only be installed on XP. This includes GLE-33 (graphic language editor by Chris Pugmire) which I use for all illustrations to publish, Wordstar V4 which permits column editing, Turbo-Pascal v55 for writing code for statistical analysis and 3-dimensional cartesian geometry. I also use IBM-SSR (Fortran IV) for matrix manipulation and for X-Ray and Gamma spectrum analysis. All of this requires DOS via XP.

A forward solution has been suggested to me to clone my C and D drives in the XP machine where the OS and everything else currently resides, onto two EHDs, and buy a modern Win 11 machine and set it up as a virtual machine. It all sounds magic and goody, but beyond me to do any of what might be involved, and therefore I need help.

I also foresee some problems. I don't like the idea of relying on EHDs which are powered by USB. So I purchased a 10TB EHD with its own PSU for reliability. This will need partitioning into 10 x 1TB units (named C to L), as XP cannot address more than 1TB. The current C and D drives (1TB each) are only half full and are never likely to fill up. I understand the suggested partitioning needs to be compatible with XP (sector size etc) so that cloning will be possible from XP. Next is actually the cloning from XP. I have no idea how to do these apparently simple first two steps.

The next problem is getting PS and Office working. These programs identify if someone tries to install onto new hardware, and will therefore fail to work. Although there is widespread anger at this when people have paid for legitimate software, the developers are deaf to complaints. I have been told that there is a workaround. 1: That several identifiers of the C drive (serial number, MAC address, etc) are used to prohibit installation on another HD. 2: that these identifying numbers can be located and then imprinted on a second HD so that installed software will work. Once again, this is all beyond me.

Finally, there is the matter of making a VM wth the two new cloned C and D drives. I am told that this should be quite simple to achieve.

I have saved up enough ping to buy a new reliable PC, but need help with the steps oulined above. I am happy to pay someone a fixed fee for help, but feel it would be reasonable to expect to pay only after a satisfactory end result is achieved. That is, all software mentioned above working. I don't feel comfortable about letting my XP machine leave my house. Therefore I would hope that some of the tasks could be implemented remotely. For example, someone might be able to talk me through the partitioning process by phone, and hopefully the cloning process. After that I could courier the cloned EHD and a new Win11 machine to someone to do the VM work and get PS and Office working, and check out everything else is working too.

It all sounds so simple using words. Is there anyone "out there" with the expertise and confidence that could help? ZL2JKP@nzart.org.nz

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1274 posts

Uber Geek

#3108868 27-Jul-2023 20:04

I realise the person is really set on keeping their existing software, however I think they should really start to look for some modern alternatives. This does not necessarily mean at a cost. For example Office could be replaced by LibreOffice or OnlyOffice. Turbo Pascal replaced by FreePascal and so on. Since they are into a bit of programming I figure they would adapt to some IT change better than most.

The situation they find themselves in is only going to get worse. XP is long out of support and the workarounds are going to begin failing more and more often.

To be honest; I'm no convinced the VM approach will solve their problem. Be happy for them to be wrong.

Might help if we can find out where abouts they live since they are asking for some help.

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johno1234

1341 posts

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#3108869 27-Jul-2023 20:10

I run a Windows 95 instance on VMWare Workstation (free) on a Windows 10 desktop PC. Win95 really doesn't know it's in a VM.

If you have your WinXP CD you can spin up an instance really easily. The hard part is getting your stuff on there but maybe you could use the WinXP backup and restore facility and your USB drive which can be mounted on the VM.

ANglEAUT

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#3108873 27-Jul-2023 20:28

Hi. Is this for Foss L. from Ngakuta Bay? Sorry, I don't know anybody in the greater Picton area that can help.

I'm hoping this WinXP machine is disconnected from the internet? As such physical access to the machine will be required.

With some versions of Windows, you can do create the virtual hard drives (VHDs) from inside the running OS. I'd recommend you don't. As such, I'd follow these steps

Back up existing user data onto EHD / network share
Shutdown PC
Remove hard drives & attached to new PC as additional drives
Clones drives to VHD twice
- Once as backup for creating new duplicates drives when you corrupt / break the 2nd set
- 2nd set to try & convert to VM
Use your preferred VM Manager to import the 2nd set of VHD's into a VM
Boot VM & check that everything run fine; i.e install drivers & patches

How to migrate existing Windows installations to VirtualBox didn't seem helpful at all here.

Create a Virtual Machine with Hyper-V Manager tells you the initial VM process using Hyper-V on Windows. Seems like WinXP is not supported in Hyper-V though. 🙄

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

ANglEAUT

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#3108876 27-Jul-2023 20:38

OwenWatson: I am a retired 81 year old pensioner, still completing and publishing my life's research work (unpaid)...

nzkc: I realise the person is really set on keeping their existing software, however I think they should really start to look for some modern alternatives.

I agree with your sentiment, but ...

He's 81 years old! Who wants to learn a complete new operating environment at that age?
He has 20-50 years worth of data that would need converting into the newer formats
Most likely, his Windows is set up "just so" He knows all the tricks & shortcuts of his current set up. A new Windows install takes time to personalise
Installation media of all the software ...
- Can you find the installation media for the currently in use software? There might be forgotten about utilities & addons besides the mentioned big software items.
- Are there current alternative available (never mind free)

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

gzt

15200 posts

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#3108883 27-Jul-2023 21:08

How large, or alternatively what is the size of used data on the existing C and D drives?

It's a detail that's helpful to know for migration planning.

gzt

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#3108886 27-Jul-2023 21:30

My approach to this problem would be as follows:

1. Use a utility or second machine to clone all disk/disks/partitions to virtual disks
2. Boot the virtual disk(s) in a virtual machine with no internet connection
3. There is obviously no risk to the existing setup at this point
3. Verify which software works, and which does not
4. Expecting Office and PS to fail here (or fail after a period)
4a. Two options if failure (b) consider free alternatives like Libre and Gimp or something simpler. (c) consider grey area jailbreaks aka cracks to get those working in the virtual hardware.

Anyway, point is all that can be achieved with minimal risk to the existing system.

Some may speak of a step 1.5 where a utility is required to 'sysprep' the virtual disks to run in new hardware. I have skipped this successfully in the past with XP. I would recommend against it by default as it strips some machine information that may be useful to retain for license purposes.

This is not my direct line of business, so to speak, but I have worked in this area in the past. I'm not offering to assist for love or money. This job requires a professional with commitment available to see it through. Only a small part of the above step one requires your machine at home. After step one a professional can complete 95% at the office if needed before returning with a new machine for your inspection.

There's a bit more required - depending how you want to get data in and out of the new setup and how you want to take care of backup onsite and/or offsite. All that is relatively straightforward when you're in the completed position above.

There are some additional risks - older software can go badly wrong on newer machines. Virtual machine managers may take care of some of those risks and Vcpu choices can influence these outcomes too. In some worst cases those issues can introduce data corruption that is not detectable until some awful failure. Regular and persistent backups as always are very sensible.

gzt

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#3108891 27-Jul-2023 22:10

Based on the information provided by the professor above in the best case I think they would have very little trouble performing the steps 1 through 3 along with some research.

The issues around 4c can be a pain for anyone to work through and may require more than one attempt using copies of the virtual disks. Information on that step tends to be publically available yet takes some experience and good judgement around the legalities and levels of risk in several dimensions. Probably the worst part.

Spark

9 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3108896 27-Jul-2023 23:02

Where are you living? I can help if you are in Auckland.

gzt

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#3108916 28-Jul-2023 07:16

On reflection I'm going to take back the first paragraph of my previous comment. In practice even the cloning operation presents risks on older machines. Just the simple act of reading areas of the disk not accessed In a long time may uncover latent issues. Most of the time it's not going to happen, even if it does it is not always a practical problem, yet it can and does happen sometimes with consequences.

I don't intend to scare you too much. Chances are, things will run without a hitch. It just illustrates it's ideal to have an experienced person on hand to formulate the next step if an unexpected problem occurs.

OwenWatson

91 posts

Master Geek

#3109136 28-Jul-2023 13:53

Responding to all the great suggestions with many thanks to everyone who took the time to think about my problem.

Someone asked where I live. Martinborough. The suggestion that I upskill would require a lengthy reponse, but basically everything works just fine for me as is, and the prospect of learning new languages and installing new software is too daunting. I have been through so many OSs already from IBM 360, PDP11, and S100-bus that I am full up, and fed up with change. Thanks to the person commenting about me being 81 years old. He/she understands that issue, especially on the matter of everything is "just so". VM sounds like a perfect solution to the possibility of my XP machine failing.

Yes, I am ex Ngakuta Bay as someone asked. ZL2BK would have been able to help if I still lived close to Blenheim, but he has enough on his plate to help from a distance.

The suggestion about cloning the C drive by plugging it into another machine won't work - wrong HD connectors. The cloning needs to be done from the XP machine - hence the USB option.

Someone asked about the size of the C and D drives. I thought I had answered that. Both are 1TB each, and each is half full. I do not anticipate ever filling those two drives up. I regularly move all material about a project when it is published onto a backup drive to keep C and D clean.

That's just good file management. Another person asked about internet connection. My XP machine is not plugged into my LAN to avoid any possibility of a nasty arriving. I use a Win11 machine for internet. More technical comments about the consequences of addressing areas of a disk that have not been accessed for a long time is a definite worry. I regularly do defrag and dskchk etc to try and keep things clean, but that is not perfect. I am still hoping someone can help me through all this and give the VM option a try. Many thanks, ZL2JKP@nzart.org.nz

gzt

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#3109205 28-Jul-2023 14:25

For your new Win11 machine start msinfo32 and copy system summary > processor. That detail will allow confirm of virtualisation support on your new machine.

cddt

657 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3109214 28-Jul-2023 14:51

I can't recommend Win11 to an 81 year old who is fed up with change. Microsoft rolls out new bells and whistles, changes the location of things, changes settings, changes the appearance etc. on a regular basis. Does my head in, even as someone comparatively youthful.

If he wants a virtual machine on a new PC, best would be some kind of Linux LTS release. Put an XP VM on that, and it will run with far less overhead and nagging than Win11.

michaelmurfy

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#3109219 28-Jul-2023 15:13

I've actually done this with an elderly person in the past. At first, was a Windows 98SE machine running as a VM on Windows XP just to get her through (she was 82 then) then we got her Windows XP machine running as a VM on Windows 10 a few years ago (she stopped using her Windows 98SE machine as she migrated everything across).

Running a VM means far less stress and allows the individual to just move over to the new machine as they like. When I created both VM's in this instance there was no networking enabled in the VM however the individual could transfer files.

It is pretty simple to do. I just took an image of her drives from her old PC and used a VMWare tool to move this across to a VM from memory. Didn't take long either. It sounds like this is what you're wanting to do. I'd be more than happy to help as I'd seriously love to see some radio gear too but am based over the ditch on the wrong side :)

Running Linux (like Linux Mint as an example) with the XP Virtual Machine is not a silly idea either. Sounds like this individual is technical and will like Linux too.

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jnimmo

1073 posts

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#3109322 28-Jul-2023 15:49

Sounds like a good solution

I think VMware Player is probably going to be your simplest solution on the new Windows 11 machine;
For simplicity & reliability, make sure your internal drive in your new machine is large enough to include all of your data.
You can use VMware Converter to virtualise your (running) Win XP system to an external drive, then copy the vmdk files onto your new machine.

If your Win XP just doesn't recognise the new 10TB drive; it should be straightforward to use 'Disk Management' from the Windows 11 device to identify the USB drive, delete the existing partitions and create a new 2TB NTFS partition which will be compatible with Windows XP. Make sure to use MBR partition scheme.

Keep in mind with the virtual machine, the VMDK files will likely be significantly smaller than the size of the partitions in XP.

You can then keep backups of your VMDKs on the external drive.

Going forward, make sure to do all your web browsing from the Windows 11 machine 😀

BarTender

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#3109335 28-Jul-2023 16:08

Having done exactly this for my mother in law. With VMware converter it can take a running machine and make it all work in VMware workstation or player.
Or use the old version of Ghost to take an image and restore it in the VM.

Happy to help you if you are based in Wellington. It’s semi straightforward if you’ve got the right software.

and

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