Modem & router vs modem/router set up

Forums › LAN (ethernet/Wifi/routers/Bluetooth) › Modem & router vs modem/router set up

silverbirch

275 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

#102977 27-May-2012 19:40

Hi all

It seems that the wireless part of my router has given up the ghost. Set up is: router Dlink DIR 600, modem Dlink DSL 526B.

Desktop WinXP SP3 connected via Ethernet to router, and laptop with Pclinuxos 2012 wireless to router. Was connected wireless- it now doesn't work.

Command line in laptop suggests wireless not seen.

Is there any way I can test the router?

It seems I need a new router, and have been googling.

Mixed reviews as to whether to go for a modem/router or a new router.

Ideas much appreciated - thanks.

"Dance among the moonbeams, feel the magic in the air".

Registered Linux user #386597 http://counter.li.org/

1 | 2

368 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 1

#631273 28-May-2012 05:31

modem and router every time...mostly.

Get a vigor 120 ADSL modem and some cool router that doesn't start with Linksys.

preferablely a router with a Broadcom chipset as it'll allow for potentual third party firmware.

For example my Linksys E4200v1 has Tomato firmware on it and runs a local DNS, PPTP and OpenVPN server. This allows phones, media, NAS and desktop devices Gigabit ethernet and highspeed WiFi on my home.lan. Plus I can connect to my home.lan from anyway via 3G and OpenVPN/PPTP on my phone.

Or, if you just want to connect to the Internet, then maybe a TP-Link TD-W8960N and ignore what I said above. If you need a Gigabit LAN at a later date you can just use a Gigabit switch.

silverbirch

275 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

#631356 28-May-2012 10:51

Thanks - checked some reviews of the TP - Link and it gets very favourable ones, so have ordered one. Don't think I'll be doing the other things you mentioned :-)

"Dance among the moonbeams, feel the magic in the air".

Registered Linux user #386597 http://counter.li.org/

silverbirch

275 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

#633272 31-May-2012 11:54

Just to update. I've just configured the TP - Link TD-W896ON, and wow it's good! Wireless connected as good as gold, and faster response than previously, as per the advertising.

Thanks for the advice :-)

"Dance among the moonbeams, feel the magic in the air".

Registered Linux user #386597 http://counter.li.org/

MurrayM

2502 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 742

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#633984 1-Jun-2012 11:02

Does the TP-Link TD-W8960N let you do simultaneous 802.11g and 802.11n?

I've got a wireless printer, laptop, Android phone and Wii that can only do 802.11g; and a netbook, Sony TV and desktop PC that can do either 802.11g or 802.11n.

At the moment my wireless router can only do 802.11g, so that's what everything is using, but I'd like to upgrade it to something that can do simultaneous 802.11g and 802.11n so that my 802.11n devices can get full speed.

silverbirch

275 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

#634322 1-Jun-2012 18:39

0know beyond my technical knowledge. Does this help?

http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/?model=TD-W8960N

"Dance among the moonbeams, feel the magic in the air".

Registered Linux user #386597 http://counter.li.org/

DrStrangelove

368 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 1

#634345 1-Jun-2012 19:20

I'm very sure you'd be able to mix and match 802.11g and 802.11n device on one WiFi radio.

In the WiFi setup look for a setting like Wireless setup mode and check the values for something like 'mix mode' or 'auto' where other options will be 802.11b/g or 802.11n.

As suggested above this would be clearly described in the user guide.

New World

Shop on-line at New World now for your groceries (affiliate link).

MurrayM

2502 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 742

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#634404 1-Jun-2012 21:07

Hmm, well on the face of it it does indeed look like this model will do both 11g and 11n simultaneously. The manual says there is an option called Mode:

"Mode: In the drop-down list you can select “11b”, “11bg”, “11bgn” and "11n only”. “11bgn” allows both 802.11b, 802.11g and 802.11n wireless stations to connect to the Router."

The reason I ask is because I've asked this question about other wireless routers and the answer has been no, it won't talk to both 11g and 11n devices at the same time. In fact I asked this question back in February, see here. And someone said the TP-Link TD-W8960N won't do what I want, which is apparently called "dual band". So now I'm confused...

DrStrangelove

368 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 1

#634480 2-Jun-2012 02:10

Note - Dear Techies/nerds and CCIEs, I'm summarising the following so things can be kept simple...CCNA and above look away.

Now then.......

One may be referring to the different Wireless frequencies and the protocols that run on those frequencies.

There are two mainstream frequencies used on modems(support ADSL) and routers(support IP routing and subnets).
These frequencies are 2.4GHz and 5GHz.

Most basic and entry level modem/routers, both old and new, support the 2.4GHz frequency.

Some mid range modem/routers support two frequencies, which you can choose ONLY one of. 2.4GHz OR 5GHz

Some mid range and high-end routers(probably not modems) support both 2.4GHz AND 5GHz frequencies at the same time. These are called dual band routers.

(1) On the 2.4GHz frequency which has been around for ages the following day-to-day protocols are supported.(there are others less used or really old)

802.11g = 54Mbits
802.11n = 65Mbits through to 300Mbits depending on the performance (and cost) of the modem/router.

On circa 2009 routers and older only the 802.11g protocol was supported.
On circa 2009 routers thru to today, both 802.11g and the newer 802.11n protocols are supported.

(2) On the 5GHz frequency which arrived on routers circa 2009-ish the following Protocols are supported.

802.11n = Up to 450Mbits depending on the performance (and cost) of the router.

So in short you have two frequencies and running on those two frequencies you have one or more 802.11 protocols.

Using the 802.11n protocol on the 2.4GHz frequency the bandwidth can be increased using two 20MHz channels, thus giving the commonly seen 40MHz channel. Given there are only 11(commonly used) channels in the 2.4GHz frequency and the channels overlap on each other, there is only three channels wholly isolated from each other on the 2.4GHz frequency.
These are channels 1, 6 and 11 as dictated by America, even when it's not our standard.
So.. when one uses a 40MHz channel bandwidth, you're not leaving much room for your neighbours to play in.
40MHz or dual channel bandwidth is not considered neighbour friendly as it takes up approx. half the channels available on the 2.4GHz frequency.

The TP-Link TD-WN8960 ONLY support the 2.4GHz frequency. On the 2.4GHz frequency the TD-WN8960, supports two protocols, 802.11g and 802.11n. The 802.11g protocol operates at a maximum bandwidth of 54Mbits/s. The 802.11n protocol operates at a bandwidth of up to 300Mbits

And that's the end of today's lesson.

Don't forget homework, I expect a 1500 word esay on the benifits of Carrier sense multiple access with collision avoidance(CSMA/CA)

MurrayM

2502 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 742

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#634509 2-Jun-2012 09:15

Thank you very much for the lesson, Doctor. I now understand this subject much better, you are indeed a great teacher! :-)

So basically I could use the TD-WN8960N and all my devices will be supported, but since there are at least 17 other wireless networks in my immediate surroundings (according to inSIDDer) I wouldn't be very neighborly because I could trample over them.

Or would I? I see four or five of them are using the same channel as me, and half seem to be using 802.11n on 2.4GHz anyway. Their strength seems to be about a third of my router's, so maybe I wouldn't affect their performance too much?

MurrayM

2502 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 742

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#634551 2-Jun-2012 11:13

On further investigation it turns out my Asus netbook, while having 802.11n, will only operate on 2.4GHz. My TV and desktop PC will work on 5GHz.

I'm torn now as to whether I should get the TD-WN8960N or not.

Colinspocket

30 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 5

#634554 2-Jun-2012 11:36

I was under the impression that WiFi operates under a 'slowest device' principle as in the router operates at the upper limits of the lowest-performance device connected to it? I.E. If you have a laptop connected to your router using wireless G then the router will only provide G levels of service to every device, regardless if they are capable of N?

Could be completely wrong here.

Also make sure you use WPA2 security and not WEP, as WEP is not compatable with N and will limit your network down to G performance.

Dell

Shop now for Dell laptops and other devices (affiliate link).

DrStrangelove

368 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 1

#634565 2-Jun-2012 12:17

Colinspocket: I was under the impression that WiFi operates under a 'slowest device' principle as in the router operates at the upper limits of the lowest-performance device connected to it? I.E. If you have a laptop connected to your router using wireless G then the router will only provide G levels of service to every device, regardless if they are capable of N?

Could be completely wrong here.

Also make sure you use WPA2 security and not WEP, as WEP is not compatable with N and will limit your network down to G performance.

Yes, I believe you're right regarding 802.11g. see end of this post.

20MHz channels on 2.4Ghz frequency are fine and will generally provide the required bandwidth for ADSL2(broadband) connections.
This means distance aside, you should get similar speeds via WiFi(802.11) and Ethernet(802.3) to the Internet as seen by using tools like speedtest.net.

Quite often WiFi channel one(1) on frequency 2.4GHz is your best option as many WiFi devices default to channel 6 or 11.
Modem/Routers that roam(channel hopping) looking for the least use channels are generally the problem as they're not as smart as they think they are and can cause channel noise and decrease signal/bandwidth to other modem/routers in the area.

It's only muppets like me, who have Network Attached Storage (NAS) that want better internal LAN bandwidth and thus look to 802.11n 40MHz channels to provide that.

And this is what was mentioned in the post you(@MurrayM) referred to that may have created some confusion.

If you have a dual band router (Hands up what frequencies are supported on dual band routers) then the frequencies can help to isolate protocols. Dual band routers are those that support the frequencies of 2.4GHz and 5GHz simultaneously. The frequencies of 2.4GHz and 5GHz are sometimes refereed to as radios.

You can run a mishmash of 802.11n and 802,11g on the 2.4GHz frequency using a 20MHz channel for the like of old network devices and mobile phones(mostly only support 2.4GHz 20MHz using 72Mbits bandwidth) and then move your power users onto the less used frequency of 5GHz(if your router supports it) where you can 'mostly' use 40MHz wide channels without impacting other WiFi services.

Unfortunately most consumer WiFi clients only support 2.4Ghz and generally only one stream (generalising, one aerial) which limits bandwidth to within 65-72Mbps on 20Mhz or 135-150Mbps on 40Mhz. And now you've started your essay on the benefits of CSMA/CA you'll understand why in the real world, these speeds will never be seen as bandwidth. Hands up who knows about half-duplex?

As the number of streams(aerials) increase, so to does the available bandwidth. This can mean theoretical bandwidth of up 300Mbps on two streams and 450Mbps on three streams (aka ASUS RT-66U).

On your 2.4Ghz frequency 802.11g (old) and 802.11n(new) don't play well together and thus the reason to move your 802.11n power users off the 2.4GHz frequency and onto the 5Ghz frequency(if your router supports it).
802.11n clients on a 2.4GHz frequency alongside 802.11g clients normal means connection speeds are dropped on all devices to 54Mbps which is the maximum bandwidth of 802.11g.

By killing off any 802.11g clients/devices in your network you will improve your 802.11n connection speeds.

802.11g will only operate on the 2.4GHz frequency.

Next class we look at the 802.11ac and why WiFi is going to hell in a handcart, so read up...

Colinspocket

30 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 5

#634592 2-Jun-2012 13:20

Excellent lessons DrStrangelove, but I have just realised we may have gone a little off topic? The original question is whether a modem & router combo is better than an integrated gateway was it not?

silverbirch

275 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

#634594 2-Jun-2012 13:22

It's been very interesting - even if a little above my head. Thanks for the tutorials, it all helps with my learning ( I think!)

Thanks

"Dance among the moonbeams, feel the magic in the air".

Registered Linux user #386597 http://counter.li.org/

MurrayM

2502 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 742

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#634607 2-Jun-2012 13:54

Thanks Doc, you've helped me decide that it's not worth me getting the TP-Link TD-WN8960N, since I won't get the speed benefit I was hoping for while I still run 802.11g gear. I either need to get a dual band router so each protocol can have its own frequency, or I need to replace the older 802.11g-only devices.

1 | 2