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Topic # 182466 16-Oct-2015 18:23
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Looking for some advice on where to find info - preferably not the lunitic fringe of the internet

Electro Magentic Frequency Radiation. its given out by electrical cables, electrical equipment, wifi routers, phones, radiating devices and natural sources.

When Hand Held Radios (CB's, Walkie Talkies etc) came out people put limits on how many Watts they can broadcast at and gave safety warnings on how close to the antennae you should get etc. Similarly other RF devices.

We have heard all the scary stuff ,cancer causing cell phones etc, epidemiological studies of transformers stepping down voltage on power lines and a raft of other things.

Two facts I know:
1 - People are effected by EMF / RF transmissions. There are some people who cant be in rooms or areas with RF, cell phones, Cell phone towers etc - it gives them headaches, ringing in the ears, sight issues, migraines etc etc. Scientifically proven. If some people are highly affected then ipso facto, we are all affected at some level .

2 - When the powers that be give permission for radiating devices like laptop wireless receivers, routers etc, they keep them at a level considered safe for human use.

Here is where I am wondering if it goes wrong.

Primary Class Rooms under the new Learning environment have 60 kids or so in them. Next door another sixty and often a class at the other end too.
Most class rooms have at least one industrial strength wireless router in them.
Most kids use laptops, ipds, tablets phones etc.

Lets assume that there are 60 laptops or devices working within transmission distance of a kid. The kid is surrounded by these devices 9am-3pm, 6 hours per day.
Kids are growing and are more susceptible to EMF, genetic mutation, etc etc.
The average kid in a class room is likely to get 30 hours per week of EMF from around sixty devices.

That doesn't take into account close contact radiation like laptops on your knees, or the affect of the 5-10 visible routers within transmission distance, smart white boards, smart TVs, etc etc. and the effect of the other classes all within visible transmission distance.

What does 60 times the safe limit or legal limit (ie one devices limit) do to people over time? Are there any studies?

Where can you get guidelines on what constitutes safe exposure - google hasn't been much help so far.

The question occurred to me standing in a cafe car park, with 12 routers visible from local shops and 3-4 cell towers within 100 meters or so of where i was standing.    One is safe, but 60?






nunz

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  Reply # 1408015 16-Oct-2015 18:29
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Two things:

 


Radio uses non-ionising radiation, which is only powerful enough to excite electrons. Ionising radiation on the other hand...

Read this article: Demonising WiFi is dangerous to your kids' health.






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  Reply # 1408016 16-Oct-2015 18:33
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freitasm: Two things:

 


Radio uses non-ionising radiation, which is only powerful enough to excite electrons. Ionising radiation on the other hand...

Read this article: Demonising WiFi is dangerous to your kids' health.


Then why:
1 - are we told to stay at least 30 cm away from smaller routers (for example ubiquity nano station routers)
2 - when working on the roof of Lincoln University there are areas where we cannot go owing to Vodafone and other trasnsmitters
3 - Everyone who worked on the repaint job on the sugar loaf transmission towers dies of cancer.






nunz

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1408017 16-Oct-2015 18:35
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1. Because "excite" means somethings heat?
2. Because "excite" means somethings heat?
3. Citation needed






jmh

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  Reply # 1408019 16-Oct-2015 18:38
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There's a long list of things we once thought were safe that turned out to be bad for you (e.g. xrays).  Where children are concerned I tend to use the precautionary principle and take measures to reduce exposure.  My home network is mostly ethernet connected and the wifi is switched off most of the time.  I do notice that when the wifi is on and I'm streaming tv I get a tightness in the chest which goes when I switch it off.  Maybe it's the dose that makes the poison.  Who knows, but I'll let someone else be the guinea pig.

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  Reply # 1408021 16-Oct-2015 18:43
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nunz: ...  There are some people who cant be in rooms or areas with RF, cell phones, Cell phone towers etc - it gives them headaches, ringing in the ears, sight issues, migraines etc etc. Scientifically proven. ...


This is all news to me.

Can you give us the "scientific proof" / reference ?




Sideface




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  Reply # 1408022 16-Oct-2015 18:44
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freitasm: 1. Because "excite" means somethings heat?
2. Because "excite" means somethings heat?
3. Citation needed




Fair call: it doesn't answer some questions though:

The article states: Eposure to radio signals from Wi-Fi and WLANs adversely affects the health of the general population. The signals are very low power, typically 0.1 watt (100 milliwatts) in both the computer and the router (access point)


What it doesn't take into account is
1 - 60 x devices = 60 x 0.1watts = 6W - higher than is considered acceptable for hand held RF units (they generally max out at 5W).   Yes exposure degrades over distance but when you add in the number of sources of emission it starts to skew back to a stronger exposure again.
2 - 0.5m is considered the safe distance - we are teaching our kids to work with laptop s on their knees - a really big no no - even it it is just for the reasons of excitation burns

3 - It doesn't deal with the phenomena of people who cant be near RF stuff as it hurts them - and again, those more sensitive show that those less sensitive will still be getting some level of affect from it.

I'll try to find the citation for Sugar  Loaf Hill.

Ironically the article used a heading: Cherry-picking studies 

It then slammed the fact no scientists were part of the discussion.

Dr Neil Cherrie (Cherry?/) from lincoln University was highly vocal about the effects of EMF and RF.

<




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  Reply # 1408025 16-Oct-2015 18:54
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nunz:  [snip]
Two facts I know:
1 - People are effected by EMF / RF transmissions. There are some people who cant be in rooms or areas with RF, cell phones, Cell phone towers etc - it gives them headaches, ringing in the ears, sight issues, migraines etc etc. Scientifically proven. If some people are highly affected then ipso facto, we are all affected at some level .
[snip]


Scientifically proven? Then cite your sources. (Not source, not the same study referred to dozens of times with no replication of results. sources. Plural)

The pseudo scientific appeal to "If there's an effect on some then then must be an effect on all" is also wobbly ground if you actually want real, scientific evidence.

Cheers - N





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  Reply # 1408026 16-Oct-2015 19:08
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Sideface:
nunz: ...  There are some people who cant be in rooms or areas with RF, cell phones, Cell phone towers etc - it gives them headaches, ringing in the ears, sight issues, migraines etc etc. Scientifically proven. ...


This is all news to me.

Can you give us the "scientific proof" / reference ?


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bem.20247/abstract

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity   - Note the quote from WHO

While there are some claims it is psycho somatic, there have been double blind studies done showing that non heating exposure to microwave radiation can cause sleep disturbances and other physical symptoms, especially tinnitus, in subjects. People working exposed to EMF are more likely to become susceptible to it.

Since 1962 the
microwave auditory effect or tinnitus has been shown from radio frequency exposure at levels below significant heating.[36][37]


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bem.2250100208/abstract    - but note the tests were conducted using lower frequency emiisions in the 16-70Hz ranges.  (ie more penetrating than the 2.4GHz range)




Studies of EMF from Mobile phones have also shown effects:

 

Sleep and EEG effects

 

Sleep, EEG and waking rCBF have been studied in relation to RF exposure for a decade now, and the majority of papers published to date have found some form of effect. While a Finnish study failed to find any effect on sleep or other cognitive function from pulsed RF exposure,[57] most other papers have found significant effects on sleep.[58][59][60][61][62][63] Two of these papers found the effect was only present when the exposure was pulsed (amplitude modulated), and one early paper found that sleep quality (measured by the amount of participants' broken sleep) improved.

 

While some papers were inconclusive or inconsistent,[64][65] a number of studies have now demonstrated reversible EEG and rCBF alterations from exposure to pulsed RF exposure.[66][67][68][69] German research from 2006 found that statistically significant EEG changes could be consistently found, but only in a relatively low proportion of study participants (12 - 30%).[70]

 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health#Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity
Behavioural effects

 

A study on mice offspring suggested that cell phone use during pregnancy may cause behavioural problems that resemble the effects of ADHD.[71]

 

Sperm count and sperm quality

 

A number of studies have shown relationships between mobile telephone use and reduced sperm count and sperm quality. Peer reviewed studies have shown relationships using statistical questionnaire techniques,[72][73][74][75][76] controlled experiments on living humans,[77] and controlled experiments on sperm outside the body.[78][79][80][81]

 

The Environmental Working Group (EWG) has a web page entitled "Cell Phone Radiation Damages Sperm, Studies Show" published August 2013. The EWG page reviews and tabulates studies showing relationships between mobile phone use and low sperm count and sperm quality.[82]

Also note children are seen as having 153% more susceptibility to radiation from phones etc, than adults - ie should be exposed to lower doses.

 

Cognitive studies of cell phone users show decrease in  cognitive function

EMF does affect us and affects kids more than adults.





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  Reply # 1408028 16-Oct-2015 19:09
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on the ships, we have exclusion zones around different radio and radar antenna's, because if you are inside the zone for a period of time you could be harmed, this harm is due to the heating effect, by the excitation of electrons in your body. this also applies to moving objects like cranes, ammunition and fuels. that is after prolonged studies and testing. i dont have any sources to cite.

we also have this onboard some of the ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SPS-49
its said that the radiation from that can effect your chromosomes and make it so you can only have boys, but again this is hair say and hasn't been scientifically proven.

we use a RADMAN: https://www.narda-sts.com/en/safety/products/human-safety/radman-radman-xt/ when we are working in potentially hazardous radiation zones, and i cant recall a case of one going off.

take it as you want but i dont consider small home electronic equipment like cellphones or home routers an issue, when ive been around 25w+ cell and wifi aerials, 25w-1.2kw radio antenna's and 10kw-360kw radar antennas, and show no physical damage/effects from it, in the almost 14 years ive been around them. There are also people who have done 50+ years and show no issues.

must be harmful

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  Reply # 1408030 16-Oct-2015 19:15
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Looks like you're perfectly capable of doing the research yourself then... However as a hint, you should read both the studies that support and fail to support your preferred outcome.

From what you cut and pasted I don't get that "EMF does affect us and affects kids more than adults" IN ANY REAL WORLD SENSE.

Sure, gravity changes with altitude, but it's never going to affect me.

And pretty much all of the radiation (of various types) media scares can be put into context by researching the impact of flying in a plane or eating a banana.

Cheers - N


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  Reply # 1408033 16-Oct-2015 19:22
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Jase2985: on the ships, we have exclusion zones around different radio and radar antenna's, because if you are inside the zone for a period of time you could be harmed, this harm is due to the heating effect, by the excitation of electrons in your body. this also applies to moving objects like cranes, ammunition and fuels. that is after prolonged studies and testing. i dont have any sources to cite.

we also have this onboard some of the ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SPS-49
its said that the radiation from that can effect your chromosomes and make it so you can only have boys, but again this is hair say and hasn't been scientifically proven.

we use a RADMAN: https://www.narda-sts.com/en/safety/products/human-safety/radman-radman-xt/ when we are working in potentially hazardous radiation zones, and i cant recall a case of one going off.

take it as you want but i dont consider small home electronic equipment like cellphones or home routers an issue, when ive been around 25w+ cell and wifi aerials, 25w-1.2kw radio antenna's and 10kw-360kw radar antennas, and show no physical damage/effects from it, in the almost 14 years ive been around them. There are also people who have done 50+ years and show no issues.

must be harmful


I've worked around stuff that should give me the screaming heebies for years. The worst is probably small non-ventilated rooms with toner based printers (highly carinogenic) , CRT monitors (they really aren't good for you shooting stuff out the back of them)  and rat pee soaked ceiling spaces. (lymes disease amongst other things). I aint dead or dying (yet) .

My best mate used to strip wet lead paint of cotton caulking with his bare hands and hammer it into ships and was exposed to who knows how many years of toxic mecury fumes from amalgum and soldering etc. He's not dead yet either.

This guy (gloveup.co.nz) died of cancer from doing stuff I've done  exposure is no guarentee of death - we all react differently.

Rf does do stuff - that's why they have defined safe limits. If it wasnt considered some kind of harmful we wouldn't have safe limits imposed on it - they dont impose safe limits on clean drinking water, breathing air, etc.

RF does have some effect.  however long term, low level exposure to kids who are more susceptible - like I asked - anyone know of any studies or has any thoughts on the fact there are now 60-180 radiating devices within detectible distance of kids, 30 hoursper week?

At the very least schools should be teaching basic health and safety stuff like dont put laptops on your knees, put it on a tray or even better, on a desk.







nunz



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  Reply # 1408034 16-Oct-2015 19:31
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Talkiet: Looks like you're perfectly capable of doing the research yourself then... However as a hint, you should read both the studies that support and fail to support your preferred outcome.

From what you cut and pasted I don't get that "EMF does affect us and affects kids more than adults" IN ANY REAL WORLD SENSE.

Sure, gravity changes with altitude, but it's never going to affect me.

And pretty much all of the radiation (of various types) media scares can be put into context by researching the impact of flying in a plane or eating a banana.

Cheers - N



I've read both sides - the lunatic fringe make me cringe, the govt studies and those with vested interests make me think of Smoking is safe studies I am familiar with from my younger times.

There is so much BS out there.

Freitasms article was helpful in thinking about ionising vs non-ionising   - however the article about the danger on wifi scaring on kids was a biased opinion who had an agenda - not a balanced approach.

Guys i know who worked in forward Comms in Bosnia / Faluga etc were very very cautious of the effects of high (> 15W) wattage, certain frequencied waves - they were taught it was dangerous.

Mammals get affected by EMF. Studies referenced above.

The fact we put safe limits on EMF trasmitting things shows there is some sense of danger - at least perceived danger, recognsed by the Govt.  so what does 60 -120 x that safe limit , across 30 hours per week on growing, more susceptible bodies do?

I still have no answer.




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  Reply # 1408035 16-Oct-2015 19:32
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nunz: [snip]

Rf does do stuff - that's why they have defined safe limits. If it wasnt considered some kind of harmful we wouldn't have safe limits imposed on it - they dont impose safe limits on clean drinking water, breathing air, etc.

RF does have some effect.  however long term, low level exposure to kids who are more susceptible - like I asked - anyone know of any studies or has any thoughts on the fact there are now 60-180 radiating devices within detectible distance of kids, 30 hoursper week?

At the very least schools should be teaching basic health and safety stuff like dont put laptops on your knees, put it on a tray or even better, on a desk.


 

But you're not right here either...

Water is lethal in high doses - and I'm not being clever and talking about drowning or having a massive icecube smack you in the head.

http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/07/27/lethaldoses/

There are _MUCH_ better things for schools to teach than to frighten children with things that the broader scientific community is very comfortable about. Now if new research or methods change the prevailing commonly held and supported position then I'll change my mind... (obref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U )

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 1408036 16-Oct-2015 19:32
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Other than the Banana dose - is there a published acceptable dosage?  

Ps not working in Equador - way to dangerous, Not the Philipines, most pacfici Islands, half of Africas, Auckland .....




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