A question of ethics...

Forums › LAN (ethernet/Wifi/routers/Bluetooth) › A question of ethics...

logicalit

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#23877 10-Jul-2008 17:14

A straw poll of sorts if I may, or a question even.

I'm spending a bit of time crusing Cafe's at the mo, and I keep on finding insecure WiFi AP's around the CHCH CBD...

I'm up to 5 cafe's now where I know I can go and get free internet access, not via the Cafe you understand... It is cheaper than using my 3G vodafone card, but.....

Anyway, the question is, should I tell the numb-skulls who are putting these things online that they're insecure? Or should I just treat it as free internet access and move on?

Would you tell them, or abuse it and ignore their ignorance?

Cheers, Me.
(And no, I won't publish my list of 'free' internet cafe's)

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#146241 10-Jul-2008 17:19

I would tell them... But this is very sensitive. Some may think you are actually "breaking" into their network, instead of recognising it is insecure by definition...

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logicalit

74 posts

Master Geek

#146342 10-Jul-2008 20:12

Ay,that's one thought I had...

'Hello, I'm a geek who has hacked into you computer network to use your internet connection for free'

Hmmm, possibly the wrong opening line...

scottjpalmer

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#146357 10-Jul-2008 20:24

chris021 has already proven his very effective technique of killing free wifi in Chch, get in touch with him!

tonyhughes

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#146360 10-Jul-2008 20:26

I have told people before. In general, they do not understand, or care.

Use it, and move on I say.

xpd

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#146361 10-Jul-2008 20:28

Yeah its bit of a hard one.... I had similar issue few years ago with a proxy server I found open...

Found this particular one based in NZ that was fully open.... did a bit of poking around and found it was a school on a full speed DSL connection... I emailed the school twice advising them of the open proxy situation and that becuase theyre on a full speed connection itd be abused quite happily by dodgy types and itd cost them the earth in data...

3 months later....no response from them...proxy still open. Left them to it. If they were too ignorant to get it fixed then it was their problem.

XPD / Gavin

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Basekid

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#146363 10-Jul-2008 20:30

In theory you are doing something that is against the law (if you use it). So I would use it as least as possible or better, not at all.

(not saying that it is not very tempting :) )

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#146675 11-Jul-2008 12:09

In our small town that has its commercial area directly on SH1 (Waikanae) I recently found 5 or more APs that were wide open, some I could identify as to what company they belonged to by the SSID others had default "D-Link" or similar as the SSID. As a responsible chap I typed up a flyer and popped it over the counter of all I thought were owners, that informed them politely of their folly especially being so close to the highway, and offered at no charge my services to secure their networks, only one replied not to thank me or ask for help but to abuse me for snooping on them!! Several months latter all of these APs except one are still wide open, all within 50m of SH1.

I still am amazed, how stupid and ignorant some folk are, they deserve to have their networks abused based on the above.

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Dratsab

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#146725 11-Jul-2008 13:04

Basekid: In theory you are doing something that is against the law (if you use it). So I would use it as least as possible or better, not at all.

Forgive my ignorance, but what actually is the law around this.

I know 'hacking' into a computer system is legislated against, but this is using an open internet access point to access - the internet.

If it's wide open (i.e. not even rudimentary security) and there are (obviously) no warnings against unauthorised persons using said access point, I would imagine a lot of the argument would come down to the intent of access point operator and knowledge of that intent by the user.

Or am I seeing shades of grey where there is actually only black and white?

logicalit

74 posts

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#146746 11-Jul-2008 13:32

So, this is still somewhat grey...

Funnily enough I'm on a customer site right now, and I've found another one that is wide open, default SSID, default router password...

Ahh well, might leave them in their happy little wireless worlds...

And no, I've not port-scanned any of the WiFi's I've found yet, but I did do a ping-scan of this one I've just found, it's a site with 59 responding devices, a mixture of Windows XP, HP printers and two 2003's so it's not a single user, it's a corporate site of some sort.. Nuts.

Cheers, Chris H.

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#146759 11-Jul-2008 13:55

And from a Service Providers point of view when connections do get abused and they get a bill for 100Gb of data for the month it is our fault and we should cover the cost .... :) ,

Wireless security is a big issue really and once fater connections become available the more potential for large data charges will occur, we are very careful when installing our Fibre to Home equipment because of this very issue.

The good thing is at least Vodafone has given something to use to deflect their rage and now I can say to them well at least it wasn't 100Gb on a iphone because then you really would be upset ....

, sorry (PaulB & Johnr) had to add that in it was just to good to miss

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scottjpalmer

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#146769 11-Jul-2008 14:09

Oi Maverick cut it out, this is the only active thread not about the iPhone/Vodafone - let's not drag it down to the low low level of all the other threads!!

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timestyles

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#146775 11-Jul-2008 14:14

Don't abuse it because the police could get involved (your MAC address could be stored somewhere and traced back to your laptop via where you bought it from, unless you use a mac spoofer). Anyway, it's theft if you use their resources without asking. People overseas have been prosecuted for doing so.

As for telling, would you tell a business that their ground floor window was always open? Just keep it anonymous. If they still keep that window open even if you tell them... that's their responsibility.

maverick

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WorldxChange

#146778 11-Jul-2008 14:19

scottjpalmer: Oi Maverick cut it out, this is the only active thread not about the iPhone/Vodafone - let's not drag it down to the low low level of all the other threads!!

Sorry won't happen again

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kinsten

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#146779 11-Jul-2008 14:20

You should take it a step further, and politely advise them that you have organised a wireless booster (at no cost to them of course) to allow more (albeit random) users free access to their security free wireless services they currently provide.
But to rest assured, their logo will be stamped somewhere near by, like a rubbish bin or lamp post, so people know which WAP to connect to.

And if they see this as an issue, to perhaps tighten up their security in this area via their current IT/Technical advisor.

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tonyhughes

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#146799 11-Jul-2008 14:39

Dratsab:
Basekid: In theory you are doing something that is against the law (if you use it). So I would use it as least as possible or better, not at all.

Forgive my ignorance, but what actually is the law around this.

I know 'hacking' into a computer system is legislated against, but this is using an open internet access point to access - the internet.

If it's wide open (i.e. not even rudimentary security) and there are (obviously) no warnings against unauthorised persons using said access point, I would imagine a lot of the argument would come down to the intent of access point operator and knowledge of that intent by the user.

Or am I seeing shades of grey where there is actually only black and white?

There is no grey area. Its theft. Period.

I would still do it though, because in the grand scheme of things, if you check your email ONCE or TWICE, you are not going to even see a court, let alone get convicted. (Not in NZ at this time anyway).

If you set up camp on the connection regularly or semi-permanently, and/or download a significant amount of data, I could see the game change very quickly.

If I leave my car in town, with the drivers door open, and the engine running, with no sign saying "please don't steal me", and you take it, then yes my son - you will face a judge.

Think about this:

If you walk onto my front lawn, stand there, admire the grass, then walk away, the police would not want to know.

If you walk onto my front lawn, stand there, admire the grass, but are still there the next day, the Fuzz will come and ask you to move on.

If you walk onto my front lawn, stand there, admire the grass, and keep coming back refusing to ever leave you will probably end up before the court.

Its all about intent, severity, and consequences really.

I am not a lawyer. Do not take my advice.

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