Apple vs Google. Privacy vs data and the benefits of AI

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dafman

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#249446 11-May-2019 10:10

I read an interesting article yesterday - Apple's commitment to privacy vs Google's data harvesting.

With data harvesting/AI, Google are able to build apps with increasing greater personal utility than Apple (The increasing gap between Assistant vs Siri is a good example). The trade off for this greater utility is less privacy. The problem for Apple is that this utility gap will continue to increase over time - how long will users value privacy if their ability to do new things increasingly compromised?

Google I/O 2019 showed this week how quickly Google AI is advancing. The clear trade off though is privacy - each new AI innovation (especially advancements in Assistant) gives more and more of your personal data to Google. eg. Using Connecting smart devices to Google Home, using Assistant to automate/manage more of your daily tasks - you are basically handing over increasing amounts of personal data to Google.

But do people care? Personally, I'm surprised so many people are happy to put a device in their home (even bedroom) that gives large corporations carte blanche to listen/spy on them 24 hours a day.

Do I care? I'm uncomfortable with where Google is heading with AI, and won't be buying a Google Home Hub/Alexia anytime soon, but am I just a luddite with outdated ideas for privacy? Does it really matter that I'm a mere one of several billion that Google collects data on?

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#2234910 11-May-2019 10:57

Google's services benefit me greatly on a daily basis. So I'm more than happy with what they collect.

I think just because Apple SAY they are collecting less data than Google, isn't worth the paper it's written in - just look at all the facebook garbage to see a corporate behemoth behaving badly until they get caught.

Same with Alexa, it's makes day-to-day mundane tasks just that much better. Well worth any info they are collecting. In fact I'm more happy with Amazon collecting that data, as opposed to Google, as they aren't the ones that run most of the advertising on the internet.

Benjip

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#2234913 11-May-2019 11:09

chevrolux:

Google's services benefit me greatly on a daily basis. So I'm more than happy with what they collect.

I think just because Apple SAY they are collecting less data than Google, isn't worth the paper it's written in - just look at all the facebook garbage to see a corporate behemoth behaving badly until they get caught.

Same with Alexa, it's makes day-to-day mundane tasks just that much better. Well worth any info they are collecting. In fact I'm more happy with Amazon collecting that data, as opposed to Google, as they aren't the ones that run most of the advertising on the internet.

I disagree 100%. Look at the San Bernardino shooter case where the FBI and the wider US Government attempted to force Apple to compromise the privacy and security of the shooter's iPhone in order to collect evidence.

Apple took a stand and said no.

Personally I can see the benefits of both sides (Google having a lot of data which is helpful for AI and day-to-day stuff, and Apple being focused on privacy). I think it's a fine line to tread, a hard balance to get right.

chevrolux

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#2234917 11-May-2019 11:29

Apple taking a stand against law enforcement asking them to break encryption is VERY different to just general data collection. I have no evidence, but just think these huge tech companies are all probably doing far far more with data than anyone really knows. We would be silly to assume they are just acting purely for the consumer.

scuwp

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#2234924 11-May-2019 11:52

Tin foil hat at the ready, but at this stage comfortable that it makes life easier. If you think Apple isn't collecting and using information in the background, you are completely deluded. Google are just more up front about it.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

amanzi

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#2234944 11-May-2019 13:01

dafman: Personally, I'm surprised so many people are happy to put a device in their home (even bedroom) that gives large corporations carte blanche to listen/spy on them 24 hours a day.

What devices are you referring to you that you believe are listening/spying 24 hours a day?

Behodar

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#2234949 11-May-2019 13:11

Benjip: I disagree 100%. Look at the San Bernardino shooter case where the FBI and the wider US Government attempted to force Apple to compromise the privacy and security of the shooter's iPhone in order to collect evidence.

Apple took a stand and said no.

Personally I can see the benefits of both sides (Google having a lot of data which is helpful for AI and day-to-day stuff, and Apple being focused on privacy). I think it's a fine line to tread, a hard balance to get right.

On the other hand, Apple is run by humans, and humans make mistakes. This isn't exactly about privacy, but at work the other day a staff member had left, and they'd returned their activation-locked phone. The standard process is to email Apple with the phone's serial number and a copy of the proof of purchase. Except the other day, it was "I forgot to attach the proof of purchase, and Apple unlocked it anyway".

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dafman

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#2234953 11-May-2019 13:21

amanzi:
dafman: Personally, I'm surprised so many people are happy to put a device in their home (even bedroom) that gives large corporations carte blanche to listen/spy on them 24 hours a day.

What devices are you referring to you that you believe are listening/spying 24 hours a day?

If you have Google Home Hub or Alexia, you have installed a live microphone into your home, connected to a corporation, that is listening 24 hours a day.

chevrolux

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#2234964 11-May-2019 13:51

Incorrect. Alexa only records and sends data on hearing the wake word. Confirmed monitoring network traffic.

Unsure what Google home does, but would assume it's the same.

Rikkitic

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#2234975 11-May-2019 14:36

The law of unintended consequences can also emerge here. If, say, Google is collecting a lot of random personal data via its microphones with no intention whatsoever to misuse it for nefarious purposes, or even to use it in any way at all, The mere fact of its existence and the potential that creates, might well result in something bad that was totally unexpected after a certain critical mass is reached. The Terminator comes to mind.

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Dial111

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#2234977 11-May-2019 14:48

chevrolux: Incorrect. Alexa only records and sends data on hearing the wake word. Confirmed monitoring network traffic.

Unsure what Google home does, but would assume it's the same.

Google is the same, you can also listen to what is recorded and delete if you feel the need.

Anyone would think someone is on the other end constantly listening through your device by the tone of this thread.

amanzi

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#2234979 11-May-2019 14:56

dafman:
amanzi:
dafman: Personally, I'm surprised so many people are happy to put a device in their home (even bedroom) that gives large corporations carte blanche to listen/spy on them 24 hours a day.

What devices are you referring to you that you believe are listening/spying 24 hours a day?

If you have Google Home Hub or Alexia, you have installed a live microphone into your home, connected to a corporation, that is listening 24 hours a day.

This is not true. These devices wait for the wake-up command ("hey google", "alexa", etc...) before recording anything. I'm not saying you shouldn't be wary, but these are definitely not "a live microphone into your home, connected to a corporation".

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dafman

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#2235003 11-May-2019 15:21

chevrolux: Incorrect. Alexa only records and sends data on hearing the wake word. Confirmed monitoring network traffic.

Unsure what Google home does, but would assume it's the same.

The microphone is live at all times and listening 24 hours a day. How do you know it is not listening and sending data when it's not supposed to? You don't. You are simply relying on an undertaking from the corporation as to when it listens to you and when it sends data.

There are already documented cases of both Alexa and Google listening/recording conversations they shouldn't have and Amazon recently confirmed that employs workers to listen to users recordings in an effort to improve its software.

geekiegeek

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#2235043 11-May-2019 16:12

Google and the likes of Facebook are harvesting as much personal data as possible as their entire business modal is predicated on it - you are the product. This data is used to manipulate you in many ways and not just to buy things, think US election.

Heres a shiny new service, now give me all of your data and I can do whatever I please with it including manipulating you in the way you act and think.

I recently deleted all social media services and no longer use any of googles services either after reading Jaron Lanier - 10 Arguments for deleting social media accounts right now.

amanzi

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#2235049 11-May-2019 16:28

dafman: The microphone is live at all times and listening 24 hours a day. How do you know it is not listening and sending data when it's not supposed to? You don't. You are simply relying on an undertaking from the corporation as to when it listens to you and when it sends data.

This can be easily proven by using network monitoring tools. I have checked myself and many others have too. You can also read up the technical details about how these devices work. You'll soon realise that it just wouldn't be feasible for Amazon or Google to be ingesting 24/7 live audio feeds from anyone with a smart hub in their home.

dafman: There are already documented cases of both Alexa and Google listening/recording conversations they shouldn't have

Can you provide links? I'd be interested to find out more about this.

dafman: Amazon recently confirmed that employs workers to listen to users recordings in an effort to improve its software.

I read the articles confirming this, and as mentioned above, these are not recordings from 24/7 listening/spying. These are the recordings from customers when interacting with the smart devices - i.e. *after* the wake-up word has been used.

I can understand that some people don't want any form of microphone in their house that may send back recordings to a corporation in America, but it's just not true to claim that these devices listen and record everything in your home 24/7.

richms

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#2235071 11-May-2019 17:14

dafman:

The microphone is live at all times and listening 24 hours a day. How do you know it is not listening and sending data when it's not supposed to? You don't. You are simply relying on an undertaking from the corporation as to when it listens to you and when it sends data.

There are already documented cases of both Alexa and Google listening/recording conversations they shouldn't have and Amazon recently confirmed that employs workers to listen to users recordings in an effort to improve its software.

How do you know that any device isnt doing that?

Richard rich.ms

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