Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.
nickb800

2735 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 829

Trusted

#270135 25-Apr-2020 10:00
Send private message

Hi, I'm planning out a major house extension and thinking about how I control the electric hot water cylinder. I'd like to have it set to heat overnight, with an automatic afternoon boost if the temperature gets below a certain point. I have a peak/off-peak/night power tariff so afternoon power is cheap, but not as cheap as night power. I'd probably have a temperature threshold of 65-70C overnight (set on the elements thermostat) then perhaps 50C for the afternoon boost threshold (set on controller). Will have a tempering valve set at or below 50C so temperature at tap would remain constant.

I'm not super familiar with how water cylinders - does anyone know how I could add a temperature probe? Are there thermowells in the elements? I'd be looking at a pretty basic cylinder so wouldn't have all the extra threaded openings found on solar/wetback cylinders. Worst case would be strapping the probe on the outlet nipple, but I'd imagine the temperature would fluctuate depending on whether hot water is being drawn or not.

Thanks


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
 1 | 2

neb

neb
11294 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 10018

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2470987 25-Apr-2020 13:28
Send private message

Worst case would be strapping the probe on the outlet nipple, but I'd imagine the temperature would fluctuate depending on whether hot water is being drawn or not.

 

 

What about strapping it to the outside wall of the cylinder? You could then try drawing water from it and measuring the temp to come up with a mapping of water temp to outside-cylinder temp.

1eStar
1604 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 375


  #2471094 25-Apr-2020 14:49
Send private message

From my experience, getting a reliable temperature reading is nearly difficult without the probe being directly in the water. And keep in mind you need to decide at which height in the cylinder you want to measure the temperature. We tried strapping a probe to a bronze bung externally and it was very unreliable. Some thermal paste may have helped but we couldn't source any at the time.

kotuku4
485 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 137

ID Verified
Lifetime subscriber

  #2471104 25-Apr-2020 15:02
Send private message

Ok will some cylinders have fittings for temperature probes, especially solar ready cylinders. I had a probe added to my cylinder for solar diverter, power is diverted from solar PV generation to heat the hot water when there is surplus, rather than exporting. There are minimum and maximum temperatures and load sensing. The thermostat is set to max in m case about 73°, can be swapped out for a hotter element/thermostat.

In my case a temp probe can be pushed up against the cylinder inside the insulation from the element opening. And or cut the outer case, slit the insulation and place probe against the cylinder, cover and tape up with metal tape.




:)


nickb800

2735 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 829

Trusted

  #2471147 25-Apr-2020 15:16
Send private message

Thanks everyone. Given its for a boost function, near the top of the cylinder would probably be ideal if there's no facility for it in the element.
Sounds like making a slit in the outer layer on the top and putting the probe against the outer of the inner cylinder with thermal paste is the worth a shot.

nickb800

2735 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 829

Trusted

  #2471151 25-Apr-2020 15:20
Send private message

Some basic cylinders seem to have multiple inlet/outlet nipples to provide flexibility for the pipe installation. Normally the unused nipples would be blanked, so I could add a thermowell to one of those. Just need a truck load of thermal paste for a 5mm thermocouple in a 20mm thermowell!

richms
29098 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 10209

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2471204 25-Apr-2020 17:00
Send private message

nickb800: Some basic cylinders seem to have multiple inlet/outlet nipples to provide flexibility for the pipe installation. Normally the unused nipples would be blanked, so I could add a thermowell to one of those. Just need a truck load of thermal paste for a 5mm thermocouple in a 20mm thermowell!

 

Or epoxy. Its not like the temperature will be swinging quickly so some thermal inertia wont hurt it.





Richard rich.ms

neb

neb
11294 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 10018

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2471207 25-Apr-2020 17:06
Send private message

nickb800: Some basic cylinders seem to have multiple inlet/outlet nipples to provide flexibility for the pipe installation. Normally the unused nipples would be blanked, so I could add a thermowell to one of those. Just need a truck load of thermal paste for a 5mm thermocouple in a 20mm thermowell!

 

 

You're thinking about this somewhat wrong, firstly heatsink grease is only meant for very thin applications to deal with minute imperfections in the surface rather than to deal with a large gap and secondly you're not trying to remove huge amounts of heat from something, just transfer the temperature from one piece of metal to another. So get a metal shim - copper if you can manage it - to press the sensor against the side of the thermowell, apply heatsink grease to where the surfaces meet, and you're done.

k1w1k1d
1711 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1305


  #2471237 25-Apr-2020 18:06
Send private message

Pack around the probe with metal filings and epoxy the top to seal.


snnet
1413 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 556


  #2471248 25-Apr-2020 18:36
Send private message

When I've done wiring for solar hot water setups we attached the probes to the inner part of where the thermostat and element are - it's a bit of guesswork to figure out what the water temp is vs the temp of the casing, though (pretty much what neb said in the first reply)


kandjc
121 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  #2471254 25-Apr-2020 19:02
Send private message

We have a solar hot water system attached to a stainless steel cylinder.

 

There are temperature probes attached to the outer surface of the cylinder at the top side and bottom side.

 

I drilled a 40mm hole through the outer metal skin and foam insulation until the cylinder surface was exposed, then attached the probe (about 50mm long and 6mm diameter) with a thin skin of thermal paste then filled the hole back with spray foam insulation.

 

The measured temperature at a hot tap is the same as shown on the solar controller so I assume my method works.

 

Ken





Cam

Handle9
11924 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9675

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2471256 25-Apr-2020 19:11
Send private message

When we do this properly(large scale commercial control, systems) we use pockets and either immersion sensors or cable sensors. With a pocket you don't need thermal paste or any of that crap. You do want something that gets you a fair way into the cylinder to get a worthwhile reading.

 

You're controlling a hot water cylinder with a time constant of greater than 30 minutes not a conveyer belt. You don't need a fast reading, just a consistent one.


Handle9
11924 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9675

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2471259 25-Apr-2020 19:13
Send private message

nickb800: Some basic cylinders seem to have multiple inlet/outlet nipples to provide flexibility for the pipe installation. Normally the unused nipples would be blanked, so I could add a thermowell to one of those. Just need a truck load of thermal paste for a 5mm thermocouple in a 20mm thermowell!

 

Thermocouples won't work very well. Use an RTD in a pocket designed for it.


elpenguino
3576 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2938


  #2471261 25-Apr-2020 19:19
Send private message

Amen. Thermocouples are good for very high temps but poor for accuracy.




Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21


neb

neb
11294 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 10018

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2471262 25-Apr-2020 19:26
Send private message

You can also get a bazillion cheap IoT-targeted sensors that aren't thermocouple-based, including I2C and similar ones if you don't want to mess with them at the analog level.

pipe60
129 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  #2471323 25-Apr-2020 21:58
Send private message

Just installed 4 ring tip RTDs on my cylinder thru slits in insulation, readings off the one by the manual guage tend to match up.


 1 | 2
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic


Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.