2degrees: Changes to IP Addresses (CGNAT)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › 2degrees: Changes to IP Addresses (CGNAT)

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meow
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#2412831 5-Feb-2020 09:16

spronkey:

Yelling loudly at someone would make me feel better for the lost hour and a half of my life troubleshooting my connection problem earlier today. I'm not going to, because I understand that in most cases the helpdesk staff have no say over these decisions. But I shouldn't have to be friendly to the helpdesk just for them to remedy this, because (at least in my opinion) it's a breach of their obligations under the CGA to provide me with the same service they told me they provided in the first place, and have never told me has changed.

You clearly don't understand the CGA... It isn't a breach as by simply phoning them they'll make it right for you. No need to yell at the person at the other end of the phone - it isn't their fault and they're a person also but they'll be quite happy to help if you're calm and simply say "hey, noticed this service isn't working anymore".

Under the CGA they're still providing you internet and as you only noticed it maybe 3 months later it is clear your service was working fine.

Just don't be that person, it doesn't fix anything - if anything, it'll make the CSR less likely to help you out. They don't have to accept customers who are abusive to them.

Michael Murphy | https://murfy.nz
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kiwibob1

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#2412841 5-Feb-2020 09:34

sbiddle:

I just look at all the positives from this - there are now even insecure CCTV cameras that have disappeared off the Internet because of the CG-NAT move, and I'm sure lots of other poorly configured devices and port forwards that have now been removed which helps make the Internet a better place for us all.

I support my daughters networking and was horrified when Myfritz complained that there was no IPv4 address. It then redirected me to the correct IPv6 address. Yes!

IPv4 is going the way of the fax machine (and for the older ones among you the telegraph and telex). Unfortunately very few NZ IPS's have recognised this yet but 2degrees are and have provided all customers with globally routable IPv6 addresses.

Telling customers about the change to CG NAT would have caused untold concern and created a total s**tstorm of calls to the 2degrees help desk about all manner of unrelated issues. I would have made the same decision.

Stacy88

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#2412860 5-Feb-2020 10:14

Update from other thread that's been locked by michaelmurfy, it would seem that my CCTV systems SMTP feature isn't working...along this, Twitch tv chat has been disconnecting and reconnecting. Does anyone else have these two issues

Just to reply to michaelmurfy, I've just managed to call 2D using another phone and lodged the problem. Currently giving them some test results such as ipconfig etc. Looks like it was a problem with my phone. I'm not trying to start an argument or whatever but please bear in mind that some users can have unknown issues into getting hold of 2D. I don't ever lie so please don't assume motives.

Anyways, Let's work together on this issue in a calm and peaceful way 😀. if I experience anything new, I will update you all. Have a wonderful day

spronkey

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#2412862 5-Feb-2020 10:19

kiwibob1:

Telling customers about the change to CG NAT would have caused untold concern and created a total s**tstorm of calls to the 2degrees help desk about all manner of unrelated issues. I would have made the same decision.

Yes, telling all customers about "CGNAT" would cause confusion, but they don't have to tell all customers about "CGNAT" do they?. Heck, they can say they're adding another layer that adds additional protection against insecure IoT devices if they want to!

They were quite happy to send out a survey around Rugby World Cup watching habits. It wouldn't be a stretch to think they could have sent out an email asking a couple of simple questions e.g. "Do you use your 2degrees Broadband connection to access devices at your home while you are away from your home? (such as internet-connected cameras, x, y, z)" and collect data on which accounts answer yes. Yes, they would get plenty of false positives, but that's much better than simply silently taking away functionality.

Companies I deal with send me communications I sometimes don't fully understand - but I'm glad that they do this instead of simply taking things away from me without telling me. The best ones even offer some links to material to help me understand what exactly they are talking about. Anyone who thinks the general consumer can't understand the general concept of CGNAT is a) not giving the general consumer enough credit, and b) underestimating the importance of good, audience-appropriate copywriting. Since when did we start accepting treating consumers as idiots anyway?

michaelmurfy:

You clearly don't understand the CGA... It isn't a breach as by simply phoning them they'll make it right for you. No need to yell at the person at the other end of the phone - it isn't their fault and they're a person also but they'll be quite happy to help if you're calm and simply say "hey, noticed this service isn't working anymore".

Under the CGA they're still providing you internet and as you only noticed it maybe 3 months later it is clear your service was working fine.

Actually, I understand the CGA - it provides a series of guarantees that sellers make automatically when you buy goods and services. When sellers and service providers breach these guarantees, it also provides specific rights to remedy for the consumer. So in this instance, 2degrees have failed to comply with their guarantee that the service is fit for the purposes for which it was originally sold to me. They now must offer a remedy to this - but it doesn't stop their reduction in service being a breach. It's also quite a clear breach of the FTA, being a bait and switch, and requiring their customers to notice the reduction in quality before offering any kind of solution.

Would you accept this from your car mechanic? Fix my car with OEM parts please. OK, sure, here's the bill for OEM parts. 6 months later: part breaks, turns out it was an ultra low quality pattern part. No you wouldn't. Maybe 99% of customers would never notice. Doesn't matter - you'd still want to tell everyone you know about the dishonest mechanic.

pooky

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#2412866 5-Feb-2020 10:27

Continued from https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=265630&page_no=2

There is a very high probability the problem is ISP side, I have just brought my home PC into work to test the problems I had using the work internet connection. And no surprise, it works without any problem.

Therefore the problem is either ISP, or my home router. And my guess would be the former, as the router hasn't exhibited any instability that I am able to perceive. Problem has only become severe in last few days, though I had a few occasional AOE disconnects over past weeks also.

@Stacy88, yes I am having the exact same problem with Twitch, the chat channel constantly reconnects showing "welcome to chat" message.

The other two problems I had were, PUBG game exiting to desktop randomly. I had initially thought it was PC stability or driver problem, but after doing a battery of tests, I could not detect any stability problems with hardware / drivers. And having now tested using different network successfully, it appears that the game either is exiting due to exception, disconnect / interruption to game server, bug, or maybe anti cheat does it intentionally.

AOE2 DE, unable to connect to multiplayer lobbies, continual disconnection from MP games / lobby and MP services.

From WireShark I could see intermittent TCP connections, and some dup packets, unexpected packets, and out of order packets every once in a while. This appeared to affect both PUBG and AOE2. I also noticed that if I forced the connection to close, PUBG was exiting, so strange behaviour for a network problem, but there is a network problem of some nature. The only question now is what is causing it.

Time to call 2Deg support I suppose. Update, I spoke to Matt on 2degrees support and he was very helpful, promptly understood based on description similar to above. He has confirmed I was on CGNAT, he has assigned a static IP to me now, and I will test it tonight to confirm whether it solves the problem. He seemed to be aware that CGNAT was impacting some customers. Static IP is temporary solution, as theoretically once they solve CGNAT problems a static IP shouldn't be necessary long term, but we will see.

Jiriteach

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#2412868 5-Feb-2020 10:28

spronkey:

Actually, I understand the CGA - it provides a series of guarantees that sellers make automatically when you buy goods and services. When sellers and service providers breach these guarantees, it also provides specific rights to remedy for the consumer. So in this instance, 2degrees have failed to comply with their guarantee that the service is fit for the purposes for which it was originally sold to me. They now must offer a remedy to this - but it doesn't stop their reduction in service being a breach. It's also quite a clear breach of the FTA, being a bait and switch, and requiring their customers to notice the reduction in quality before offering any kind of solution.

Perhaps you should read their Terms and Conditions which you agreed to when you signed up?

To help you - read Section 15 - Changing the terms and conditions.

To further help - here is a small snippet -

15. Changing the terms and conditions

We may change this Agreement and/or vary any Service at any time in accordance with this clause 15.

If we reasonably believe that a change is likely to benefit you or have no or a neutral impact on you, we may make that change without giving you prior notice.
If we intend to:

- increase our Charges for any of the Service(s); and/or
- reduce the elements of a Service you are using; and/or
- change the terms of this Agreement

Sigh - Based on this, I am not sure I understand your rant or reasoning? Ring them and talk to them!

-- opinions expressed by me are solely my own. ie - personal

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spronkey

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#2412897 5-Feb-2020 11:03

Jiriteach:

Perhaps you should read their Terms and Conditions which you agreed to when you signed up?

a) Read further. The very next sentence states "and we reasonably believe that change will have only a minor detrimental impact on you, we will give you at least 10 working days’ prior notice, and where possible we will try to give you 30 days’ prior notice before making that change.". They also suggest the same notice period "For any other change".

b) You can't contract out of the CGA.

Their own terms and conditions say they will give me notice! It's also worth stating that in their own terms and conditions they have a clause for terminating the contract because of a 'detrimental change', but that this has to be claimed within 30 days. Again, technically consumers have more rights than that under the CGA, but still amusing considering the lack of notice and that this has clearly "materially adversely impaced the way in which you use the Service" (their own language).

Jiriteach

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#2412903 5-Feb-2020 11:16

spronkey:

Jiriteach:

Perhaps you should read their Terms and Conditions which you agreed to when you signed up?

a) Read further. The very next sentence states "and we reasonably believe that change will have only a minor detrimental impact on you, we will give you at least 10 working days’ prior notice, and where possible we will try to give you 30 days’ prior notice before making that change.". They also suggest the same notice period "For any other change".

b) You can't contract out of the CGA.

Their own terms and conditions say they will give me notice! It's also worth stating that in their own terms and conditions they have a clause for terminating the contract because of a 'detrimental change', but that this has to be claimed within 30 days. Again, technically consumers have more rights than that under the CGA, but still amusing considering the lack of notice and that this has clearly "materially adversely impaced the way in which you use the Service" (their own language).

So this change is obviously having a "detrimental" impact on you. Many others would disagree or not have noticed.
They did work for a decent sample of customers through this change - https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=255661&page_no=7#2306303

As the terms and conditions say - "If you can demonstrate to our reasonable satisfaction that a change would have more than a minor detrimental impact on you ..." then you are entitled to terminate your contract which might be the best thing to do if you are unhappy with the service.

-- opinions expressed by me are solely my own. ie - personal

mentalinc

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#2412910 5-Feb-2020 11:25

Great service from 2Degrees, 10 minute call including the hold waiting for an agent to initially answer, and the two times on hold while they did their thing.

All solved, as a long term customer (when bigpipe dropped IPv6 I moved) well looked after by the changes. Storm in a tea cup otherwise it appears!

I need to fix my Edgerouter config I think as internet has not come back up, but that's me on non standard kit...

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spronkey

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#2412925 5-Feb-2020 11:36

Jiriteach:

So this change is obviously having a "detrimental" impact on you. Many others would disagree or not have noticed.
They did work for a decent sample of customers through this change - https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=255661&page_no=7#2306303

As the terms and conditions say - "If you can demonstrate to our reasonable satisfaction that a change would have more than a minor detrimental impact on you ..." then you are entitled to terminate your contract which might be the best thing to do if you are unhappy with the service.

I think the main issue, with respect to their terms and conditions, is that CGNAT clearly falls under "reduce the elements of a Service you are using", which according to their own T&Cs, requires that they give notice.

Anyway, after 15 minutes on the phone, mostly on hold, they have "fixed the problem" by giving me a static IP "for no charge for now". Seemingly no option to remain on a non-CGNAT dynamic IP (I don't really want or need a static IP - No-IP is just fine for my purposes), and no information at all as to when the "$10/month additional charge" will kick in.

So while my "problem" is somewhat resolved now, this has left a very sour note.

steve98

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#2412964 5-Feb-2020 11:58

I'm just getting my head around this change after I found I could no longer connect to my father's 2d router via myfritz to help him out. The MyFritz site seems to confirm his connection is up but offers me no way of actually connecting to it any more... is there something I need to do to get MyFritz working again with CGNAT? Sorry if this has already been covered.

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pooky

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#2412983 5-Feb-2020 12:23

An update to my problems mentioned above, I am now home testing the static IP 2Deg support assigned. And the problems appear to be resolved. Therefore there was a problem with CGNAT affecting my connectivity to, PUBG, AOE2 DE, and twitch chat (which did work but was continually reconnecting every 30 sec)

Thank you 2Deg for prompt assistance, the support representative Matt was very good on the phone. Wait time around 15min, and call about 5min to solve. Wait not unreasonable given others may also be affected.

kiwibob1

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#2412988 5-Feb-2020 12:30

steve98:

I'm just getting my head around this change after I found I could no longer connect to my father's 2d router via myfritz to help him out. The MyFritz site seems to confirm his connection is up but offers me no way of actually connecting to it any more... is there something I need to do to get MyFritz working again with CGNAT? Sorry if this has already been covered.

My remote access just 'worked' but it requires that you have IPv6 (available and enabled) at both ends. This is the default situation with 2degrees but few other providers.

hio77

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#2412989 5-Feb-2020 12:30

pooky:
An update to my problems mentioned above, I am now home testing the static IP 2Deg support assigned. And the problems appear to be resolved. Therefore there was a problem with CGNAT affecting my connectivity to, PUBG, AOE2 DE, and twitch chat (which did work but was continually reconnecting every 30 sec)

Thank you 2Deg for prompt assistance, the support representative Matt was very good on the phone. Wait time around 15min, and call about 5min to solve. Wait not unreasonable given others may also be affected.

That really sounds like the scnat rule is timing out. For all of those things a public ip isn't required or even really used at all

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Stacy88

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#2413040 5-Feb-2020 13:25

Update: My issue(s) have been fixed. At first I was told by the 2D tech lady to disable "Teredo filter" to see if that fixed up my problem which I disabled and problem still persisted. After informing that this method did not resolve, I called them again and a 2D tech guy picked up and read my account log. He then tried the static IP method where he enabled my broadband account to use static ip for a while to do the testing. After this was enabled, issue was gone. I was then permanently given the static ip for free due to my long term loyalty as their customer for a long time.

Thanks so much to the 2D guy who helped me out with such amazing customer service skill and networking skills. You sure knew your stuff as I can tell from the replies you gave me. Even though the queue time was long I'm really happy that the issue is gone now. Also, thanks to the Geekzone team for your honesty.

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