It's not you, it's me (PS4 poor upload speeds)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › It's not you, it's me (PS4 poor upload speeds)

TactualRain

29 posts

Geek

#240212 27-Aug-2018 09:56

I'm getting some fairly horrid upload speeds on PlayStation, which is required to get SharePlay to work.

To cover off the basics, yes I know that the estimates on the PSN dash are guesswork, but it's so low as to be ludicrous.

We have 100/20 UFB. This works pretty well across the board, speedtest results show generally 3ms latency and hammer the speed at line rate. The internal network is fully wired on gig, with the PS4 directly connected to the Fritz box. The rest of the network "works fine" and the internal network is sufficient for PS4 streaming and steam streaming (which suggests the devices' local net connections are fine, the hardware isn't the issue, but I've also swapped cables and ports to be sure).

When testing the PS4's network speed, it usually comes back with 70-85 down, and a paltry 2.5 up. This is insufficient for SharePlay, by a significant margin (apparently, 5 is the minimum). A PS TV on the same network reports 1.2up relatively consistently.

I visited a friend's house with a PS4, and he gets 12-14 up on his Spark connection, which makes me suspicious of the 2degrees link to wherever Sony use to measure this stuff.

Differences in our houses are a) he's got a PS4 Pro (mine's vanilla), b) he's with Spark, and therefor c) he has a different router.

Are there things I can do on the Fritz box to increase PS4 performance? Is this a "known issue" with 2degrees' network? I've tried calling support but got the usual "we don't control the internet and BTW it's probably the stuff in your house, LOL sorry not sorry," which wasn't actually helpful.

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136 posts

Master Geek

#2079550 27-Aug-2018 10:00

My setup is too different to be much help (still can't afford to upgrade from my PS3 :-) ). One quick thought, are you using 2Degrees' DNS servers? You might be connecting to a distant server on the PSN if they can't work out where you are.

TactualRain

29 posts

Geek

#2079552 27-Aug-2018 10:08

Yep, I'm using their stuffs. I used to use Google DNS, but found that abhorrent for both download and upload :) Using the 2D setup means downloading is super fast, no complaints on Steam, Xbox, or PS4, but the upload is frail and sickly :)

Item

1717 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2079577 27-Aug-2018 10:43

I will try to remember to test mine tonight if you like and see what I get? I am on 2Degres (GB though) and have a PS4 Pro + Wired into Fritzbox.

TactualRain

29 posts

Geek

#2079595 27-Aug-2018 10:59

That would be great if you could. I'm trying to rule out whether it's the network, or the router, or whether the PS4 vanilla is just a bit average on the network side.

Liviy

13 posts

Geek

#2079609 27-Aug-2018 11:28

Hi,

So a friend of mine brought your post to my attention as this is my area of expertise and I'm usually too busy to post on here...

So...PSN Download/Upload connection speeds...this age old chestnut that plagues everyone! Some have claimed the fixes are changing to specific DNS servers...some have even claimed the fix is to use a proxy server...they unfortunately are incorrect as they don't understand the real issue. Both may give some benefits but are hit & miss plus even if they work to start with they'll find the speed can still dramatically change almost at random.

Again, unfortunately there's no full on "quick fix" currently but that's what I've been doing as a pet project for over a year. I have a solution which I alpha tested with great success in several countries last year where each user went from low download speeds to pretty much maxing their internet connection on downloads plus the "internet test" each time was giving the same results within 5% of the other values rather than the normal range of values you get with that test where it's more like a random number generator than a speed test. So if it was successful tested last year, where is it? I shelved it as it needed a special OS which for testing was running in a virtual machine and that doesn't make it very portable when trying to make it into something that anyone can easily use...and there it lay gathering dust...

However...just last weekend randomly decided to dust off the code again after being pestered by friends about what ever happened to it and with some time away it's given me a bit of a fresh perspective. I've been working on optimizing the thing from the ground up in an attempt to hopefully be able to bundle it into something like a mobile app and/or web app (to be run on the ps4 browser). It's still work in progress, the logic is sound and I've even been able to extend the solution to the upload as well as the download now that I completely understand how the whole process works from end to end...to the point that I actually have a copy of the server code that the official PS4 download & upload tests use. So hopefully this year I'll look at a beta test and releasing to the public.

So there is hope! In the meantime unfortunately there's no generic fix like googles DNS or whatever, the issue is actually quite complex to the point that I could setup someone's PS4 perfectly running in their home at max speed but their friend next door running an identical setup but a different ISP wouldn't necessarily get the same improvement. There's extra fun with the fact that life happens and the perfect connection setup to PSN can change/have issues so the setup can last for days/weeks/months/years but it's going to have to be optimized again at some point which is why I started developing this application that basically analyzes your setup, looks at what the options are for your situation and works out your best option then offers it to your PS4.

I'm on 2Degrees and here's a speed test run just yesterday on my PS4 Pro..as an example:

And here's a screenshot from it looking at those 200 options for NZ:

The take away from this is there's no real quick fix and anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand the problem or is lying but hopefully if I get time to finish it that will change soon.

TactualRain

29 posts

Geek

#2079643 27-Aug-2018 12:05

I like the problem's so byzantine a fix is to use a 3rd party app :)

I also not two hundred servers as being source/destinations from NZ. This is eye-watering, but might also support the theory that whichever one I'm using is torched from the wire leaving the PS4 through the Internet at 2D.

NickMack

962 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2079667 27-Aug-2018 12:47

Wow - @Liviy keen to take this offline so we can understand the problem a little more if you have some time, then see if there's anything we can do. Either that or work on some documentation on how to get it going well on the 2d network. Any console that you have to be a mad scientist, standing on one leg, poking your tongue to the left in order to get to this work well seems .. interesting and somewhat un-useful.

Nick.

https://nick.mackechnie.co.nz | NZ ISP latency monitoring - https://smokeping.thenet.gen.nz

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TactualRain

29 posts

Geek

#2079678 27-Aug-2018 13:06

Any console that you have to be a mad scientist, standing on one leg, poking your tongue to the left in order to get to this work well seems .. interesting and somewhat un-useful.

It's telling that Sony noped right out of the conversation on this when I contacted PSN support. I think it's a common refrain, but it'd be nice to understand how to get it working a little better on the 2D network. PSN services clearly work for download just fine, but upload is a trash fire, and it's not clear why it's different from a user-diagnosis perspective (esp. since other stuff on the network works fine).

Liviy

13 posts

Geek

#2079743 27-Aug-2018 13:55

NickMack:
Wow - @Liviy keen to take this offline so we can understand the problem a little more if you have some time, then see if there's anything we can do. Either that or work on some documentation on how to get it going well on the 2d network. Any console that you have to be a mad scientist, standing on one leg, poking your tongue to the left in order to get to this work well seems .. interesting and somewhat un-useful.

Nick.

Crap-sticks! I just lost a massive reply to this when I hit post and I really can’t be bothered typing it again on my phone so it’s the TLDR version...

My response was “somewhat un-useful” on purpose as I’ve got a lot of time/effort/knowledge invested in creating a solution to a worldwide problem which has been around for years. So I’m trying to protect my product while I develop it...if I can help here & there on a small scale without compromising it then I will as it’s the type of person I am. I’ll see if I can come up with a temp solution for 2D on a small scale but I fear if it gets too popular then it will slow down the speeds as more use it.
I’ll explain a little more about the PSN setup & problems in another post.

Liviy

13 posts

Geek

#2079756 27-Aug-2018 14:30

So...the high level view of the issue with the PSN setup is that they went with one which has resiliency/redundancy at the core rather than performance. All users (except me ;) ) on the network are at the mercy of what basically appears as randomness around which of the +15,000 (globally) local connection servers available they are using at any point in time. Which one you use is determined by a lot of conditions...including where you are located, the ISP you go through, who they connect to and a whole lot of other things. The idea is that barring a complete PSN wide meltdown or one at your ISP that the users should always have access to the PSN network even if large parts of the network between has issues.
That’s cool right? For ensuring maximum connection for the masses and minimal loss of service for sure but it does introduce the problem we all love to hate which is it becomes a random pot luck as to what performance you get. Which is why if you do multiple Internet tests back to back on your PlayStation (with everything else turned off on your home network if you want to make sure there’s nothing skewing your results but even as is you’ll likely see it clearly anyway) you do the tests and compared with say a normal speed test that the results tend to be kind of close to each other with these tests you’ll get such a random and wide range of numbers in your results because you’re not necessarily always hitting the same server & route for the test each time... and if for example you happen to be lucky and all the ones in the batch you currently use are great right now then that doesn’t guarantee they’ll stay that way because you’ll have them until the system decides to change them or even if it doesn’t then if something happens to them (e.g. get overloaded with use or has memory issues or something) and the performance drops the overall system for PSN doesn’t care as long as they exist and can communicate at any speed no matter how slow. Throw into the mix that the up & down paths are independent...sometimes will be the same but quite often not.

The TLDR version of that is : PSN is a complex network system which is ever changing for everyone who’s primary directive is to ensure users can connect in as much of the time as possible and not performance. The only way to avoid being at the mercy of it is to not allow its PSN GPS to navigate your PS4 and calculate the route for it.

And obviously all the things I’ve said are assuming your home network is running great to start with...because if it’s not (and I’d say more home networks have an issue (or multiple, to varying degrees) than don’t. Which is why I’m building diagnostics into my code to do some sanity checks to inform you of any and the fix before even attempting to be your guide into the dark tunnels of the PSN ;)

Again, yes I’ve been intentionally vague for obvious reasons but it should at least give you some insight to why there is a problem and it’s still there years later with no solution...it works for Sony...they care that you connect just not at what speed as it would cost them an insane amount to have their support staff help resolve everyone’s speed problems when most of the time it’s outside their control.

Item

1717 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2079916 27-Aug-2018 18:46

TactualRain:

That would be great if you could. I'm trying to rule out whether it's the network, or the router, or whether the PS4 vanilla is just a bit average on the network side.

Tested mine just now about 5 times in a row and the built in test gives me a variety of download speeds ranging from 146Mbps to 652Mbps whereas the upload speed is a very consistent 148Mbps.

Go figure!

Liviy

13 posts

Geek

#2079952 27-Aug-2018 20:20

Item:
TactualRain:

That would be great if you could. I'm trying to rule out whether it's the network, or the router, or whether the PS4 vanilla is just a bit average on the network side.

Tested mine just now about 5 times in a row and the built in test gives me a variety of download speeds ranging from 146Mbps to 652Mbps whereas the upload speed is a very consistent 148Mbps.

Go figure!

As I said on both counts...

* Download - I did say that you’d see those kind of differences...the speeds vary quite a lot with the tests as they tend to change plus in peak times if you’re hitting a highly used path it will also depend on the load. There’s other factors in there too including the test they use itself is kind of flawed and a lot of routers & network setups have an industry wide issue affecting them called bufferbloat.

* Upload - that often uses a different path to downloads hence why it might not be changing or it just happens to be that the paths it’s using are about the same currently since there tends to be less demand for upload.

Liviy

13 posts

Geek

#2079954 27-Aug-2018 20:25

@TactualRain

I’m pretty tired as it’s been a busy day and I’ve worked everyday for as long as I can remember but I’ll try and have a quick look and see if I can’t find a best guess for a fix for you with your upload from my data. The fact that your on the same ISP as me goes a long way but not knowing where you are and the network route your connection takes adds the guess work but let’s see if I can’t get you a solution that at least gets you functioning with your PSN on upload & download.
I’ll private message you with some options...if not tonight because I fall asleep then tomorrow.

Liviy

13 posts

Geek

#2086631 9-Sep-2018 22:09

So...after finally working out the root cause of my router instability...damn alpha code! Who’d have thought it would have bugs! ;)

I did a quick couple of standard PS4 network tests without using my code behind it...good news if you still need to get a good upload speed. Using be standard 2d setup was giving me a reasonably solid 100mbs upload in the tests... just FYI. Hopefully you were well sorted before now anyway but just making sure.

Anyway; feel free to get back in touch if you are still having issues...but also kudos to 2D for some good results on their PSN servers! :D

Now that my router seems stable I’ll be putting in some time to pushing the optimizer towards release...a bit of a shameless plug yeah but also just the fact that I’ll have updated data shortly too if help is needed.

Liviy

TactualRain

29 posts

Geek

#2086663 10-Sep-2018 07:31

Yeah I get nothing like that :( Still about 1.4... But I've given up as it's too hard a problem to solve. Without a definitive fix, and some pretty apathetic support from 2D ("the internet is variable") it's impossible to diagnose for limited benefit. I'll just have to live in jealousy of the people who've managed to get this working.

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