Digital Radio - What happened?

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RustyViewer

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#204368 29-Sep-2016 01:35

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum section or not to discuss this. Moderator?

What has happened to Digital Radio? Why do we not have this yet? They have it in Britain where I believe both AM and FM bands have been abandoned.

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#1642219 29-Sep-2016 02:06

Nobody cared, we dont have a shortage of stations as spectrum in NZ doesnt have to be coordinated with neighbouring countries and the long skinnyness of NZ means frequancy reuse is good.

The first gen DAB sucked, with only lousy mpeg, the dab+ with AAC is better but why invest in more infrastructure when you are just going to put the same content on to it, and have to invent more brands to fill up other capacity? There is no business case to move off FM, advertisers are happy, listeners put up with it and if they do abandon it then the chances of buying more hardware vs using their phone is quite unlikly.

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kiwirock

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#1642225 29-Sep-2016 05:08

Too late, you've got me started on something I'm very passionate about.

As someone who has worked in radio broadcasting and had many discussions on digital it comes back to the same thing as mentioned above.

Whole new re-investment in spectrum and transmission equipment for no real gain to both the stations and advertisers. More spectrum just means more brands, and further market fragmentation. Sometimes choice is a bad thing.

If your interests are for better quality audio. Well, that involves an entire re-think of how things are currently done.

Most music is still stored in MPEG1 Layer-II anywhere from 256Kbps down to 160Kbps, yes Layer-II, not Layer-III. Then it's re-lossy compressed over AAC (MPEG4) links via satellite for the majority of network feed times on most stations apart from breakfast. They at least upped to MPEG4 about 6-7 years ago over NSS9 which was all Layer-II before this.

Except, with AAC, now most networks are tempted to just use an even smaller bitrate for network feeds. So there's only bandwidth gain over satellite links to be had and a few dollars saved.

Then it's re-lossy compressed to send over a digital STL (unless the local studio's are lucky enough to still use two older analogue links per stereo transmission, or worse, a composite link).

So by the time you introduce DAB... well, it's not for a major quality increase. The only thing to be gained by this is less static (which you could call better quality), if you're close enough to enjoy it not just dropping dead altogether.

Most DAB broadcasts in the UK, are still only around 15KHz of frequency response. This is no gain over FM frequency response wise.

In the states, DAB is working because in some hot markets, some new brands have started out with linear (PCM) libraries. They've stayed linear right through, until the end user delivery method which then employ's lossy compression. However, the majority still don't.

Only in the last 6-7 years has there been a decent re-investment in older equipment in NZ. When a re-furb' was done down here for RadioWorks at the time they were still running NT and shock horror, Windows for Workgroups for a major brand. This was sometime after 2008. I believe the re-furb' was hastened by a nasty Windows bug that plagued them at the time.

The older gear went to the communities. I know one that still has a Dolby AC-2 library that comes from their main centre studios. I won't name the brand, but it's not exactly small or medium market that's for sure. We're talking pre-MPEG days in radio.

I think there are still DAB transmissions in Auckland and Wellington for National and Concert? Public money will always be over-spent on doing things to a high standard.

But privately... don't expect any change any time soon. It's not worth the $$$. Not when you can try targeted playlists and advertising like iHeart does. I'd say most people listen to audio on their smart phones more than radios anymore. By listen, I mean paying attention... what drives advertising revenue. Not background music.

It's good we held off so we didn't end up down the DAB MPEG Layer-II route. DAB+ and AAC is better. That would have just sounded disgusting ,commercial radio on DAB here. It's already squeezed to within a Kbit of it's life.

Keep in mind, the industry is no longer really an innovative one when it comes to tech. Focus is always on advertising and programme content. That's where money spent matters most. Once we hit FM stereo, digital to the user is kind of costly. The only really cheap way to do it, would be to jump on Freeview and pay through the mouth for a decent bandwidth to pull it off in either AAC via UHF, or Layer-II via satellite. This would work for regional and NZ wide brands to those interested in enjoying higher quality listening on already available devices. Hook a receiver to the stereo and off you go.

One last thing to not forget: CD's produced these days are a smashed up brick wall of sound pushing digital clipping to the point of no return. DAB can't fix this.

It's a very hard fight to remind studios to produce compact discs that are not as loud as a freight train, instead with more with dynamic range, clarity, and with a smaller peak level. 0dBFS is technically bad full stop. 16-bit digital to analogue audio converters can re-construct peaks anywhere from 3-6dB higher = distortion.

Grab a 70's CD, pretend not to notice the noisy transfers, and that's what the CD was designed for. Then the loudness war went and ruined everything. If you think the loudness war wouldn't migrate on to DAB, think again. It'd ruin it from that perspective too.

If DAB did really take off here, I bet half the feeds would come from an FM tuner still. Unless the station has an up to date processor that also does a quality digital processed output for DAB feeds. However, as most stations are networked to a large extent, the smaller centres won't have the latest tech, so a feed from the FM receiver in the studio is likely to end up feeding a DAB transmitter.

However, you can't discount smart phone's in every pocket. I don't know how this is working for iHeart though. Most people I see using mobile devices have their own music service or library without advertising, or look it up on Youtube.

If it's quality though, it has to start with how it's ingested, distributed, STL'd and then delivered. Freeview would make more sense for the few willing to listen with decent kit at home.

I will continue to help drive linear libraries for smaller market and communities. Where re-doing libraries or creating new one's is not such a big deal. But to do that on a grand scale, for all the network's libraries. Nah, ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

My 2 cents,

Gavin.

sbiddle

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#1642230 29-Sep-2016 05:58

richms:

Nobody cared

This.

sbiddle

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#1642231 29-Sep-2016 05:58

richms:

Nobody cared

This.

DAB has been a big failure in Australia.

wellygary

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#1642432 29-Sep-2016 10:37

People still listen to music on the Radio? :)

RustyViewer

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#1642762 29-Sep-2016 16:03

I asked because my VHF aerial blew off the roof, and I decided to chuck it rather than put it back, since TV now only has UHF.

The problem is, as a result of this, my FM radios no longer have perfect reception. There's one or two things I would like to record but the quality makes it not worth it.

Out of curiosity, are we ever going to abandon AM?

Spyware

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#1642768 29-Sep-2016 16:24

DAB would be on VHF band III (174 to 230 MHz) if we had it so you still would need a VHF antenna.

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ScuL

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#1642772 29-Sep-2016 16:31

Funny you brought this up, I was also thinking this a few days ago when listening to the hiss of the FM radio at work every time a bus goes by.

Adoption of DAB radios has been painfully slow, even in the UK. Considering how many AM/FM devices are in existence this is unsurprising, particularly in cars.

I don't think the average person here in NZ (or even AU) is waiting to replace their radios for a slight improvement of quality, people tend to have radios on in the background, not to listen to a quality piece of music, generally.

Not sure what the future holds but I'm of the opinion that FM will be replaced by streaming (web) via mobile data rather than a digital broadcasting system.

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jamesrobert

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#1642780 29-Sep-2016 16:45

"Out of curiosity, are we ever going to abandon AM?"

short answer..... no
long answer...... no

Sideface

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#1642788 29-Sep-2016 16:55

kiwirock:

<snip>

So by the time you introduce DAB... well, it's not for a major quality increase. The only thing to be gained by this is less static (which you could call better quality), if you're close enough to enjoy it not just dropping dead altogether.

Most DAB broadcasts in the UK, are still only around 15KHz of frequency response. This is no gain over FM frequency response wise.

<snip>

I am a shameless hi-fi enthusiast.

When I listen to radio, its over FM using an upmarket FM tuner attached to a dedicated FM aerial on our roof.

Friends in the UK tell me that the sound quality of DAB is now inferior to FM when used at home (as distinct from in a car), even when using decent equipment.

What are your thoughts? Does DAB sacrifice sound quality for convenience?

Sideface

kiwirock

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#1642845 29-Sep-2016 17:31

Yep. It's more for marketing and reinvesting radio listener-ship. However their population makes niche programming and space for more of it a little more worth while.

It'll slowly die once high speed Internet with large data plans and decent online streaming bitrates start to pop up. If it doesn't tick off the music recording studios first at the quality that can be delivered to the end user.

All those lossless audio encoding chains on top of limited frequency response just like FM. Then the loudness wars. You simply can't fix this unless you fix it from the ground up. That won't happen. That costs a lot of money and re-investment in production and programming.

If I remember rightly DAB+ also limits the bitrate to quite a low bitrate. I think 64-80Kbps or 128Kbps max. That's not enough in my opinion because of the lossless audio coding behind the scenes at the studios, on-air talent that doesn't really care less about gauges and meters pinging away in the red, and the loudness wars material.

Otherwise just buy what you want to hear at 256Kbps AAC from iTunes etc...

The only thing DAB is really good for, is classical and jazz formats etc... where the programme directors and studio engineer don't care about loudness. They are more interested in open and quality audio from ingest to the end listener and such a niche format they have the time to do it right from the start. No re-inventing the wheel so to speak. This only works though if you have an audience that likes the "company" that radio provides its listeners.

Those types of formats don't have significant commercial value though.

FM is no longer FM quality just like CD quality has been watered down to CD quality. It's low bitrate lossy compressed audio that ends up on FM, with less high frequency response than the days of CD player DOS based controlled automation with carts and reels. Then along came MPEG when hard drive space was limited to 8-20GB SCSI which cost the earth. Now, as long as it sounds like the competiting stations audio quality (which might be fair at best) then that's acceptable or a little bit less. As long as it's loud, it's about content, not quality.

Setting up an entire DAB network for a few niche formats doesn't make sense. Unless you can piggy back off what's already there (Freeview). So that just leaves listening online.

RustyViewer

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#1643032 30-Sep-2016 02:19

Sideface, what do you mean by dedicated FM aerial? Is there one specifically designed for FM or are you talking about the old VHF aerial?

Sideface

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#1643101 30-Sep-2016 08:32

RustyViewer:

Sideface, what do you mean by dedicated FM aerial? Is there one specifically designed for FM or are you talking about the old VHF aerial?

Yes, I mean one specifically designed for FM - a 3 element , pole-mounted aerial on the roof:

There is also a 6 element option:

See: FM & DAB Aerials

Sideface

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#1643136 30-Sep-2016 09:54

The existing DAB 'trial' which has been going on for years in Auckland & Wellington uses frequencies 'borrowed' from a government agency, that is said to want them back. The existing license permission runs out before the end of 2017, and I'm told the only people really interested in continuing are Kordia, who want to provide the delivery infrastructure.

Since receivers are now 'down to only about $400', there is a very limited market to replace the sub-$25 bedside clock-radio (e.g. http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/tv-and-audio/personal-home-audio/alarm-clocks-and-portable-radios/teac-alarm-clock-radio.html).

DAB was always IMNSHO a solution looking for a problem to solve, and it has now been overtaken by streaming audio delivered through 4G.
DAB is still-born in the NZ market

In the back-blocks, or long distance on the road, AM is and always will be king because its relatively low frequencies travel a long way and go round corners and through obstacles much better than FM.
For example, you can listen to National Radio of 567AM (transmitted from Titahi Bay) all the way from Wellington to past Hawera - by Inglewood you need to change to the New Plymouth frequency.

sbiddle

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#1643161 30-Sep-2016 10:15

Radios are cheap these days. You can pick them up for $20 in Australia, I've seen clock radios for not much more at places like Aldi.

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