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Topic # 55373 1-Jan-2010 15:21
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Hi all

For the last couple of weeks I have been researching how I might best assemble a satellite setup that allows multiple receivers to independently watch any channel (H or V polarisation) on optus d1 and optus d2. I have come to the conclusion that this would require a multiswitch setup...

I have seen this multiswitch unit on FreeviewShop - I believe it is very similar to the unit that I need to buy. The description clearly states that it is not suitable for use with universal LNBs (I understand why!). It would be my intension to use it with two LNBs that each have one throat, one local oscillator frequency and two physical F-type outputs (one for horizontal polarity and one for vertical) - I believe such LNBs are known as "dual" LNBs. To be very clear, I am not talking about "dual-throat" LNBs (which are effectively two LNBs in one housing, usually with one output), or "twin" LNBs (which are regular LNBs that have two independent outputs). They are more like "quattro" LNBs (which have 4 outputs: low freq. horiz. pol., low freq. vert. pol., high freq. horiz. pol., and high freq. horiz. pol.) except they only have one internal frequency (and hence only two outputs). Anyhow moving along...

I guess I have 2 "questions".

1. Is it possible to use 2 (what I call) "dual" LNBs with a multiswitch that is generally intended for use with a "quattro" LNB?

2. If the answer to question 1 is "yes", does anyone know where I can buy the appropriate LNBs and a powered multiswitch with more than 4 outputs? Note that I would prefer relatively high quality components...

Thanks in advance



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  Reply # 286413 1-Jan-2010 16:15
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Hi, a couple of the NZ dealers used to have them, but due to the fact that very few services of interest are directed at NZ are either Hpol on D1 or Vpol on D2 (ie Globcast muxs) then dual output LNBs are not normally needed, so have fallen of their catalogues.

However in Aus they are common as Foxtel/Austar use them as they use both H&Vpol on C1/D3.

http://www.sciteq.com.au/store/product_info.php?products_id=351&SciTeqsid=6ab64eb18b640d9b6e1c7bb01d7c7022

They also have a good range of reasonable priced multiswitches.

http://www.sciteq.com.au/store/index.php?cPath=26_79&SciTeqsid=6ab64eb18b640d9b6e1c7bb01d7c7022

Edit: Also be aware that a normal quad output LNB can supply either polarity out of any output, and if a universal any output can supply either high or low band on both polarity depending on the presence or not of 22kHz.

A Quattro on the other hand has four outputs, each output is dedicated to an band/polarity, ie one output will be lowband Hpol, the next output is lowband Vpol, etc. These types of LNBs are only suited to multiswitches that are designed to go with them.

Cheers
Cyril



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  Reply # 286433 1-Jan-2010 18:03
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Hi Cyril

Thanks for the links.
With regard to the "dual" LNBs: that's exactly what I was looking for. Since they aren't available in NZ, it makes me wonder whether quattros are, and whether quattros would be a more cost effective option? In other words, could I use two outputs from a pair of quattros instead of two duals? (Could you advise me here?)

I guess it is a question of how multiswitches interface with such LNBs. Usually to select vertical polarisation an STB must supply the LNB with 13V. When you use a multiswitch in combination with a dual or quattro LNB, does the switch pass 13V (as in my example) to the vertical output of a dual LNB at the same time as passing 18V to the horizontal output (for another of the multiswitch's outputs)? I mean that output is only ever going to be horizontal polarisation, so why supply the voltage? But then I wonder how would the LNB be powered?

As you can see I am more than a little confused about a few things! I was advised by a former satTV installer to simplify by only going for horizontal stuff from D1 and vertical stuff from D2, however I would like the setup to be flexible... Any general advice would be much appreciated!

Edit: I forgot to add that any advice about externally powered vs. "passive" multiswitches would also be appreciated. We'll be splitting the cable 3 times for satellite and 4 times for analog/FM/DVB-T so I thought an 8 output powered multiswitch would be best. I know it could probably be done with a 4 but I'd rather not have another splitter just for the analog etc. if I can avoid it. Maybe you think it wouldn't matter? I'm just a little concerned about the feeds for our various computers, which seem to require better signals than dedicated STBs and TVs.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 286487 2-Jan-2010 10:25
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Hi, a normal multiswitch that is not intended to work with a quattro LNB (ie normal basic LNBs) normally drive 13/18V and 0/22kHz to each of the 4 inputs as indicated. Then when a STB supplies what ever combination then the switch routes the appropriate input to that output.

A multiswitch that is designed to work with a quattro LNB only supplies 13V to all inputs to power the LNB, the LNB itself only outputs a dedicated band/pol to the indicated outputs. A quattro LNB is pretty much a European unique device.

To acheive what you are wanting to do should not be a problem, essentially the 22kHz on the 3 and 4th inputs is not needed by the LNB, as its only needed by the switch to determine to offer inputs 3/4 rather than 1/2. So you need to ensure that your LNBs will not spuriously respond to 22kHz. I have found single output LNBs with only one LO that when supplied with 22kHz produced no outputs. I presume that internatlly they had a full dual LO setup including 22kHz logic but only one LO, so when 22kHz was input the end result was no LO so no output.

I recommend that you email the guys at the above site and tell then exactly what you want to achieve and can they supply both a switch and LNBs to achieve that.

Cheers
Cyril

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  Reply # 286545 2-Jan-2010 20:25
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cyril7: I recommend that you email the guys at the above site and tell then exactly what you want to achieve and can they supply both a switch and LNBs to achieve that.


good point.  I was after some stuff from Freeview Shop, but after speaking to Lars, he advised me on something different.

These guys usually know their stuff, so it's a good idea to see what they adivse you to get.

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  Reply # 286617 3-Jan-2010 10:07
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critical one here is not all multiswitches are the same with respect to what they provide/source on their inputs, so its best to ask the guys selling the gear what combination will work.

Cheers
Cyril



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  Reply # 287058 5-Jan-2010 00:18
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Well this is the reply I got...
"We unfortunately do not supply to New Zealand. We also do not have the type of multi-switch that you need. I hope you find what you need."

Pretty frustrating!

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  Reply # 287069 5-Jan-2010 05:48
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hmm, last time I used them I was working in Darwin, not tried them from here, so much for CER.

Try Satmax in ChCh, they should be able to point you in the right direction.

Cyril

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  Reply # 287280 5-Jan-2010 22:11
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I can sell you 2 MTI AP82 - T2E Universal twin LNB. 2 totally independent LNB's. 021 681 371



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  Reply # 287915 7-Jan-2010 21:48
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(Sorry been a little busy...)
Thank you very much for the offer - I'll certainly seriously consider it although I'm pretty sure a twin output LNB would require a different multiswitch than a dual output...



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  Reply # 289969 14-Jan-2010 12:50
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Well I've put in a number of emails to satellite specialists both here and in Australia but haven't had any success...

@cyril7
It is not usually my preference to buy things like this from overseas since it can be difficult to get service if there is trouble and it can be easy to make purchasing mistakes. However I have seen this very flash multiswitch on ebay. The manufacturer's product page can be found here. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this...

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  Reply # 290175 15-Jan-2010 07:31
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Hi, very flash indeed, but also pricey. How many outputs do you actually need. I suspect all you require is the SH54A as listed on Freeviewshop, it says it does not support universal LNBs as its does not output 22kHz from its inputs, only 13 or 18V, which as I understand it is exactly what you require to go with pauls dual output LNBs and will do exactly what you require.

ie, outputs 13 and 18 V on pairs of 4 inputs and nothing else, and in response to 13/18V and 22kHz on its outputs will supply either polarity from first or second pair.

Cheers
Cyril

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  Reply # 290225 15-Jan-2010 10:02
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  Reply # 290493 16-Jan-2010 11:02
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Hi,

Just saw your post. Answers are as follows:

1) Is it possible to use 2 (what I call) "dual" LNBs with a multiswitch that is generally intended for use with a "quattro" LNB?

Yes. But you will find most of the "Dual" or "Twin User" LNBs are Universal so you need a 22khz tone to operate them.

2) If the answer to question 1 is "yes", does anyone know where I can buy the appropriate LNBs and a powered multiswitch with
more than 4 outputs? Note that I would prefer relatively high quality components...

We have access to a commercial grade Engel product or another equivalent Multiswitch that will accept 4 x IF inputs and 1 x Terrestrial
and offers 8 outputs. It is possible to implement D1 & D2 solution with:

a) 1 x Multiswitch ( 5in (13V,18v,13+22Khz,18+22KHz,Ter), 8Out)
b) 1 x Engel Twin User LNB (AN7106)
c) 2 x Single LNBs ( SRTL851 )
d) 1 x Engel AC7098 MultiLNB Holder (AC7098)
e) 2 x Dishes

You need two dishes to send through both H & V polarity for any one of the satellites. This is because we cannot put a second
Twin LNB.

You can contact DTV Solutions 0800388765 if you want to progress it further.


AH



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  Reply # 290562 16-Jan-2010 17:06
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Current setup [~170kB]

Proposed setup [~250kB]
(Rapidshare links, so only 10 downloads of each available)

I figured at this point it would probably be useful to have some diagrams! I apologise in advance for the messyness...

I think the first image is pretty self explanatory. Personally I mostly use the computer for TV. As shown, it has 2 DVB-S and 2 hybrid DVB-T/analog tuners. At the moment it is the only "TV" in the house that receives Freeview (terrestrial). On to the next image.

As discussed, we would change up the satellite setup to have the 2 dual LNBs and multiswitch. The immediate benefits are that TV1 and the computer would be able to receive Freeview (satellite) and independent feeds of Optus D2. In future it would be possible to add terrestrial/satellite boxes to the other existing TVs, or add new TVs very easily.

A few other points:
The original recommendation was to go for a relatively cheap option...
- add a second standard LNB to the dish
- use a 2x4 multiswitch with D2 on the Vpol input and D1 on the Hpol input

The further benefits of the 9x8 setup in my mind are that (1) we could easily add future satellite inputs (for example D3 if we got Sky) and (2) we could (if you believe the manual) use twin (as opposed to dual) LNBs.


@cyril7
We could get away with 4 outputs by using the 4th output as dedicated VHF/UHF and using our exisiting splitter to create the split for TV2 and TV3. I don't think this is really ideal unless we were certain we would go with Freeview HD when we upgrade those TVs. As far as I'm concerned we definitely should, but HD STBs do tend to be more expensive (and other people have some input into this discussion Wink).

@ventolin
It is hard to know whether that is a twin output or a dual polarity output LNB. The multiswitch that I buy will probably end up determining whether I could use it or not. Thanks for pointing it out :)

@dtvs
Thank you very much for the info. Very helpful! I have to say that having to get a second dish would not be ideal. What is it that stops you from mounting 2 twin LNBs on the single dish? (I guess maybe the availability of appropriate brackets?) Are you able to source 9x8 multiswitches as well, and if so what sort of price would I be looking at? Thanks once again.



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  Reply # 293663 27-Jan-2010 22:08
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Well I've bit the bullet and bought the flash multi-switch! I only did it because I happened to find another seller offering one for NZD$150 (as opposed to the USD$230<~~>NZD$325 price of the original seller). Seemed too good to be true but apparently the unit is new and he is just selling to recover costs after going out of business late last year... Really hope he is not conning me!Undecided

@kiwisat:
I'm wondering if you still have your MTI twin LNBs available? Once the multiswitch gets here I'm going to take a good look at the manual and see what is and isn't possible as far as LNB compatibility goes. If I find that the multiswitch can handle your LNBs (and you still have them) I'll get in touch...

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