IT Professionals New Zealand closing down

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#3420809 2-Oct-2025 20:31

saf:

Anyone can look around even locally and see the likes of local sports groups, social clubs, town & country clubs and the like under increasing pressure and in may cases - closure - from a declining member base and thus financials.

As someone who is still (barely) on the younger end of the adult spectrum, the purpose of such groups escapes me. Like a "social club", what on earth is that? I don't know a single person who is involved in anything like that.

Perhaps those of us from generations who have grown up in a neoliberal economic environment can't quite grasp the concept.

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bennerg

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#3420812 2-Oct-2025 20:57

As someone who is still (barely) on the younger end of the adult spectrum, the purpose of such groups escapes me. Like a "social club", what on earth is that? I don't know a single person who is involved in anything like that.

Perhaps those of us from generations who have grown up in a neoliberal economic environment can't quite grasp the concept.

ITP is not a social club - I cannot see how you would think that. Ever visited their website?

Have you not heard of the NZ Law Society, the Institute of Electrical Engineers. The Medical Association, the NZ Institute of Architects, and same for nurses, physiotherapists etc.

They are all professional bodies set up to (a) manage the profession with standards and certification, and (b) provide a reference point in society for that skill or technology, so the public may be sure a person representing that profession is skilled and adheres to the ethics and standards required.

To perhaps give some background, and as one of the original cohort to get the CITPNZ certification, the creation of ITP out of the former "New Zealand Computer Society" was an attempt to raise the IT profession out of the image of scruffy nerds with little or no business acumen, project management skills etc. The introduction of SFIA (Skills Framework for the Information Age) a globally recognised approach designed to identify, develop, and nurture the essential skills your team needs in today's digital world, was critical in ensuring that ITP could bring the nerds into the real world. And for the real world to perceive ITP memebrs had a professional body to ensure they had the real world skills required. (and not just a degree ...) In my experience as an employer, a graduate is not fit for releasing into the world, for at least 5 years, and maybe more. In my era in the 70's and 80's employed at the Post Office, professional electrical engineers did at least 4 to 5 years after graduation before getting professional registration. So a good comparison there.

As a somewhat retired person, I have continued to provide mentoring services to ITP members, managed of course through ITP.

So sad to see it go, I'm sure another will rise up out of the ashes.

Dynamic

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#3420841 3-Oct-2025 08:04

snj:

I don't think it was in the NZ Herald article previously, but it seems based on what ITP president Jamie Vaughan said to the Herald that the ITP weren't paying dues to the BCS for quite a while and that in turn meant the BCS cancelled ITP's recognition. Sounds like the issues were squarely on financial management.

That was my takeaway from the latest NZ Herald article. Accounts had not been audited for several years. Some members were years overdue with payments but (I believe) their theoretical membership payments outstanding were still being counted as revenue. This feels to me (as an outsider reading news articles) like financial mismanagement.

‘Gutting’: IT Professionals NZ faces liquidation after twin accounting shocks – Tech Insider - NZ Herald

Even if the day to day accounting functions are delegated, the Board are ultimately responsible for ensuring the correct guardrails are in place. The Constitution required an audit (ITP Constitution), they failed to follow their own constitution, and I suspect this is a very strong contributor to their downfall.

As a volunteer on a Boards/Committees currently and in the past, I know it's often not an easy balance. Volunteer Board members have limited time. It's not their role to dig into the detail, however they are still accountable for that detail. It's typically up to the CEO of the organisation to keep the Board up to date and enact the Board's chosen direction (which is normally set in consultation with the CEO). Audit processes are there to verify the financials are actually as they appear to be, and like Insurance they can feel like a waste of money.

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NoSpoon

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#3420842 3-Oct-2025 08:17

> To go from that to today indicates a really major change. Either in income or outgoings.

Or that there's more to it than just the headline numbers. If those assets included $150k of overdue membership fees, then they were never really solvent.

> a. quit the office, sell the desks and photocopier

They did that 2-3 years ago

> c. employ a new well briefed manager to work from home, and a part time membership person (8 hours per week!)

They did that in August (and arguably 3 years ago)

> e. get a committee of volunteers to work on and create our own certification

Quite apart from the complexity of this and the difficulty getting volunteers to do anything at present (people are busy!), half the point of CITP is that it's internationally recognised.

> f. ramp up the mentoring programme

They've been doing that for the last year. I've mentored two members this year and last.

> g. spend some money on a more dynamic engaging website featuring certified members

They don't have money to spend.

> h. remove all cultural / DEI indoctrination from the organisation, and focus on core business

I don't think you getting your feelings hurt by people saying "Kia ora" is what's killing them

> i. engage the membership .... again and again and again.

This is incredibly difficult and/or expensive. Several different NFPs I have an attachment to have found this, doubly so post-covid.\

> IT Professionals is honoured to have been gifted a Māori name - Te Pou Hangarau Ngaio

That name was gifted to them in 2017, so not the best example of the current or previous leadership being "woke"

> Let me copy to you part a recent email from the "new GM"

I can copy you in on part of an email from the CEO in 2018:

Ngā mihi,
--
Paul Matthews

Chief Executive
IT Professionals New Zealand | Te Pou Hangarau Ngaio

There were some of the scary Māori words under the earlier non-woke CEO too. Or is it only scary when a woman says them?

gehenna

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#3420845 3-Oct-2025 08:24

I personally feel that all roads lead to the Board in this situation. I'm flexible enough to think otherwise when evidence is presented, but so far I see this as governance deficiencies enabling management deficiencies enabling administrative deficiencies. If a Board is strong and effective then the downstream impacts shouldn't happen. There's edge cases of wilful obfuscation, of course, but given the transparencty of recent leadership I don't see this as being likely, yet.

It's a shame we weren't having a conversation about what the industry needs from a professional body before we lost the body. There's still a place for the ITP mission in the industry, but it always needed stronger teeth to define professional standards that organisations bought into. An independent body telling professionals "this is what good looks like" is always going to be better than businesses in the industry doing it, e.g. Microsoft certifications, which only really serve Microsoft.

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#3420846 3-Oct-2025 08:25

@NoSpoon

What a response. Bravo.

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jonb

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#3420872 3-Oct-2025 09:32

Some similar insightful comments on The Register article of the same.

https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/02/nz_itp_collapse/

NoSpoon

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#3420877 3-Oct-2025 09:48

gehenna:

I personally feel that all roads lead to the Board in this situation. I'm flexible enough to think otherwise when evidence is presented, but so far I see this as governance deficiencies enabling management deficiencies enabling administrative deficiencies. If a Board is strong and effective then the downstream impacts shouldn't happen. There's edge cases of wilful obfuscation, of course, but given the transparencty of recent leadership I don't see this as being likely, yet.

I'm not going to make any observations one way or another about the Board (and previous Boards) of ITP as I don't think that's helpful now. However this comment is representative of a wider issue - NFP governance in NZ is often done poorly. Roles are unpaid (or attract a token honorarium), so attracting experienced directors is tricky. The volunteers that take on these roles are amazing people, but often just don't have the experience, so don't know what questions need to be asked to properly hold management to account. I suspect this problem is exacerbated for organisations like ITP where the Board is elected from within their membership, and their membership tends to be IT people (funnily enough). This has a high potential to leave some pretty substantial skills gaps - e.g. around accountancy.

It's a pretty tough problem to solve. Making the Board a mix of elected and appointed members is a good start. If they're unpaid roles you're still going to struggle to find the best candidates, and obviously a $500k per year organisation shouldn't have a $300k per year budget line for Board fees, but even an early-career accountant can bring valuable insight.

gehenna

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#3420882 3-Oct-2025 10:01

If you're not making any observations about the board, you're doing a bad job of it in the rest of your post. I've dealt with plenty of NFP boards that cover their range of governance responsibilities adequately. I'm suggesting that accountability sits with the board, which doesn't seem revolutionary. You seem to be suggesting they were set up to fail because they were unfit for purpose and that's just how it is in NFP land. Maybe that will come to light eventually, but that doesn't diminish the board's responsibility and accountability up to this point, regardless of their capability.

CamH

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#3420884 3-Oct-2025 10:03

bennerg:

Need I say more. For a good number of membership that is NOT what ITP is/was about. And it appears they have voted with their feet.

If a couple words in a different language (and may I point out that they are in an Official Language of Aotearoa New Zealand) are that offensive to you, maybe it's time to stay bubble wrapped inside your house.

BlakJak

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#3420889 3-Oct-2025 10:12

Easy to blame the board, but also, they have (had) paid staff? Simple things like managing debtors and creditors are transactional tasks that should probably be managed day-to-day by staff engaged for the purpose.

Yes the Board are supposed to ensure this occurs. But also volunteer boards in particular are not going to be across the detail.

Like 'hey, we procured a thing, here's the invoice, and here's when we paid it' are pretty fundamental.

As are the routine management of debtors who havn't paid their dues.

Heck my own ITP membership for this year didn't get paid due to a clerical oversight in March, it was chased up a few weeks ago (so someone at ITP was clearly doing some of this work!) and it was settled in fairly short order after that. So we know at least some of this has been happening. Perhaps just not enough rigor in it?

No signature to see here, move along...

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#3420893 3-Oct-2025 10:25

gehenna:

If you're not making any observations about the board, you're doing a bad job of it in the rest of your post. I've dealt with plenty of NFP boards that cover their range of governance responsibilities adequately. I'm suggesting that accountability sits with the board, which doesn't seem revolutionary. You seem to be suggesting they were set up to fail because they were unfit for purpose and that's just how it is in NFP land. Maybe that will come to light eventually, but that doesn't diminish the board's responsibility and accountability up to this point, regardless of their capability.

I quite deliberately said I wasn't making any observations about that specific organisation or Board. All I'm saying is that NFP governance is often done poorly in New Zealand. It'd be great if we could do better. This isn't really a revolutionary position.

Yes accountability sits with the board. Yes some NFPs do an adequate job. I don't think I disagree with you on anything (other than where you're saying I'm doing a bad job of course).

gehenna

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#3420896 3-Oct-2025 10:37

BlakJak:

Easy to blame the board, but also, they have (had) paid staff? Simple things like managing debtors and creditors are transactional tasks that should probably be managed day-to-day by staff engaged for the purpose.

I've said a board is accountable and exists to manage risk in advance. Going back to my earlier post where I said "the first thing I thought when reading the comms"... I felt that way because of their comments re "the full scale only became clear...." and "Once the Board had the facts...." coming across (in my subjective opinion) as finger pointing management's transparency.

My ongoing point is that Boards exist to minimise and manage risk, and if they've only just learned the full extent of the issues then that's as much a governance failing as a management failing.

The full story may or may not come to light. I still feel the wording of the Board's comms were suspiciously slopey-shouldered.

SpartanVXL

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#3420978 3-Oct-2025 13:39

Not sure about the rest of the reasons, but from what I know ‘young’ IT people going back the last decade wouldn’t use or know of orgs like this. Theres no apparent benefit so it would be ignored.

Grads would go for an internship or entry roles up against overseas competition (and now AI), work their way up or get in via their own networking/contacts. If they were capable in any way they’d thrown in to complete a project while learning what they can and hopefully progress to permanent position in 1-2 years and senior in 4-5 years.

If things aren’t looking great for prospects they’d job hop somewhere to advance. This usually meant going to australia or elsewhere because NZ doesn’t remunerate enough for whats expected.

Not sure why Discord is used as an excuse, grads have always had to promote themselves. Portfolios of work on github, technical tests etc. IT is still a wild west compared to something like engineering or medical.

johno1234

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#3420981 3-Oct-2025 13:50

bennerg:

As someone who is still (barely) on the younger end of the adult spectrum, the purpose of such groups escapes me. Like a "social club", what on earth is that? I don't know a single person who is involved in anything like that.

Perhaps those of us from generations who have grown up in a neoliberal economic environment can't quite grasp the concept.

ITP is not a social club - I cannot see how you would think that. Ever visited their website?

Have you not heard of the NZ Law Society, the Institute of Electrical Engineers. The Medical Association, the NZ Institute of Architects, and same for nurses, physiotherapists etc.

They are all professional bodies set up to (a) manage the profession with standards and certification, and (b) provide a reference point in society for that skill or technology, so the public may be sure a person representing that profession is skilled and adheres to the ethics and standards required.

To perhaps give some background, and as one of the original cohort to get the CITPNZ certification, the creation of ITP out of the former "New Zealand Computer Society" was an attempt to raise the IT profession out of the image of scruffy nerds with little or no business acumen, project management skills etc. The introduction of SFIA (Skills Framework for the Information Age) a globally recognised approach designed to identify, develop, and nurture the essential skills your team needs in today's digital world, was critical in ensuring that ITP could bring the nerds into the real world. And for the real world to perceive ITP memebrs had a professional body to ensure they had the real world skills required. (and not just a degree ...) In my experience as an employer, a graduate is not fit for releasing into the world, for at least 5 years, and maybe more. In my era in the 70's and 80's employed at the Post Office, professional electrical engineers did at least 4 to 5 years after graduation before getting professional registration. So a good comparison there.

As a somewhat retired person, I have continued to provide mentoring services to ITP members, managed of course through ITP.

So sad to see it go, I'm sure another will rise up out of the ashes.

Big difference with the medical/legal/engineering/architectural "professions" though - you have to qualify academically to join (difficult) then pass their own professional standards test (difficult) and you cannot practice without their ticket. Any clown can shill themselves out as an "IT Professional" - just like me!

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