Microsoft offering hosted Exchange and Sharepoint services

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freakalad

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#28124 19-Nov-2008 11:24

Yip, they're at it again: exchange & sharepoint SaaS
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/18/exchange_sharepoint_online_us_only
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/nov08/11-17ExchangeSharePointOnlinePR.mspx

Trying to play in Google's back-yard.
Could this be why my hotmail stopped working?

[Moderator edit (MF): changed subject to reflect topic and moved to appropriate forum]

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#178844 19-Nov-2008 16:00

Those offerings are intented to small and medium businesses and won't replace the free Windows Live Hotmail service.

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freakalad

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#178851 19-Nov-2008 16:13

Standard-practice IMAP functionality, like designating where non-Inbox mail is stored (referred to a "cached exchange"), has been crippled in outlook, but featured become available when coupled with exchange.
hotmail is no longer able to function reasonably, unless you are accessing ie on ms (this is a fact, and is well documented in numerous forums & 'zines)
In addition, hotmail does not provide IETF-standards-compliant IMAP or POP functionality (it may under premium service, but I find it to be an oxymoron to pay to use something that's supposed to be free). The only way anyone is able to use hotmail via a client is by using a ms client.

The point I'm trying to make is that it would not surprise me that the service has been intentionally crippled to "encourage" users to adopt their "premium" service (these are the things conspiracy-theories are made of; where there's smoke...)

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freitasm

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#178853 19-Nov-2008 16:17

The point I am trying to make is that they are intended to different markets. Outlook is not a Windows Live Hotmail client, so your IMAP comment makes no sense when applied yo your "experience" that Hotmail is not functioning.

Hotmail is a browser-based email service, but you can access it from Outlook if using the Outlook Connector (free download) or on Windows if you download Windows Live Mail (free download).

I don't really see why of your comments in this case - you started with "Hotmail is not working" quickly changing to a "Microsoft is making a non-standard product"...

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freakalad

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#178856 19-Nov-2008 16:37

The point is standards.
Hotmail is not working, because it is not adhering to standards (W3C), otherwise it would be universally accessible by browsers adhering to W3C standards (or at least at a functional level).
Hotmail is not accessible from outside the browser interface, as any decent mail provider with web-access to the service does provide, like Yahoo, Gmail, or any of the vast majority of reputable mail providers, free of otherwise (without having to install an arcane 3rd party add-ons component, which opens up more holes to who-knows-what).

You could argue that the new changes where not implemented to improve the service, because it now broken, for all ends&purposes, except, of course, for ms+ie users.
It's really no skin off my teeth, because I use is as a garbage receptacle (which it's REALLY good at, surprise, surprise), but it doesn't change the fact that it's effectively broken, and it's remained broken, and I'm wondering why.

If you have any insight into why it seems this way, or if you know of any other "tricks" that would give it a modicum of value beyond an address that can be used to collect spam, I 'd be interested to learn something new

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#178857 19-Nov-2008 16:41

Very different topic. You started saying it stopped working, and then went on to create a conspiracy theory that sees Microsoft intentionally breaking Hotmail so people would go to hosted Exchange. I explained they are intended for different market segments.

I have just tested Hotmail on IE7, IE8, Firefox 3, Opera 9.62 and Safari. And it's working in all then, so I suggest you check your browser settings to make sure you are not (unnecessarily) blocking cookies, javascript or anything else.

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zocster

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#178858 19-Nov-2008 16:49

freitasm:

I have jut tested Hotmail on IE7, IE8, Firefox 3, Opera 9.62 and Safari. And it's working in all then, so I suggest you check your browser settings to make sure you are not (unnecessarily) blocking cookies, javascript or anything else.

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freakalad

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#178864 19-Nov-2008 17:15

No problems? Most users I've spoken to haven't had it that lucky.
You are then one of the VERY few user that are not pulling out their hair & spitting mad:
http://windowslivewire.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2F7EB29B42641D59!14128.entry

Sayings like "Once bitten, twice shy", "Where there's smoke, there's fire", "If it sounds too good to be true, it IS too good to be true" ring true for a reason. Every ms press-release or other announcement, I now read with an eye for ulterior motives, as it's probably not too far off the mark (and, yes, I am biased)

Though they may be marketed to different markets, does not mean they'll not try their darnedest to dominate every market. The goal is to become all-pervasive. SBS is marketed towards small businesses, many of whom run businesses from home, so by extension will affect their home usage of these services. If a SMB is unwilling or unable to implement their own SBS, they can get it as a service (hence the post)

Much of the same same can be said for many other providers, including Google & Yahoo (soon to become another ms appendage?), so it really should be taken with a pinch of salt.

It comes down to vendor lock-in & dependence (which non-adherence to standards foster), and once locked into a particular vendor, the extortion can begin (there is a very derogatory term for this kind of *ware, but I'm aware of your feelings about use of this type of lexicon).
This is my concern about the bizspark offering, as there's no such a thing as a free lunch. Cheap, sure, but not free

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bcourtney

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#178866 19-Nov-2008 17:23

Nicky Hager?

freakalad

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#178867 19-Nov-2008 17:28

Nicky Hager: interresting wikipedia page. (thanks for the refernce)

I suspect the fella may be onto something there. Fits with the idea of: just because you're not paraniod, does not mean they're not after you.

They are. Paranoia pays

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Ragnor

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#178971 20-Nov-2008 02:50

Consider this:

Google doesn’t charge you for performing searches or using Gmail because it makes money by selling advertising to you.

Gmail has 10 million users, each of which are allotted 2 gigabytes, but each user on average only uses 10% of their storage space. Then you need about 200 megabytes of storage per user, but you’ll need to double that because you need to keep a backup of every bit of data. So you need 4 million gigabytes of storage, which is going to cost US$1.6 million.

That’s peanuts to Google, but still significantly more than zero, and that’s just the cost for the hard drives. Then there’s the servers to run the service, the bandwidth, a place to put the servers, electricity to run them, technicians to operate them and develop the site, and so on. And this is all only on the loss-making side of the business.

On the other side (selling advertising), you need a mechanism for selling ads, billing, collecting debts, and so on. All this sounds far from free to me, and I’m just wildly guessing, but providing email service to 10 million customers could well cost $10 million per year, which is a decent amount of advertising to have to sell.

Cheaper storage and bandwidth have improved the economics of the online email business, but it doesn’t guarantee that providing online email for free is going to be money-making, nor does it mean that an ad-supported ‘free’ model is the only way to go.

Source: http://www.26econ.com/freetard-economics/

So imo basically Google has the critical mass of customers to make it work and turn a profit the rest of the market is fragmented and for example Hotmail/Windows Live and Yahoo don't have the critical mass to make it profitable enough to bother to keep investing in (bad ROI) then moving to a software as a service model (SAAS) is the logical choice.

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#178997 20-Nov-2008 09:00

What's not functioning correctly for your browser with hotmail? Mine works perfectly fine, and I don't use IE. Nor has anyone else I know so far as I'm aware.

Certainly I'm aware that back on the old platform (pre-live) there were issues around non-IE browsers. But this is going back quite a few years now - and MS have really stepped up their game as far as using web-standards and browser compatability lately on their web-projects.

And just to get on topic again - I agree completely with Mauricio, a hosting exchange service doesn't even remotely compare with the likes of a freebie hotmail account. Completely different markets. I'm sorry to say it, but I think you're really reaching hard to find a problem where there isn't one.

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freitasm

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#178999 20-Nov-2008 09:09

Ragnor: So imo basically Google has the critical mass of customers to make it work and turn a profit the rest of the market is fragmented and for example Hotmail/Windows Live and Yahoo don't have the critical mass to make it profitable enough to bother to keep investing in (bad ROI) then moving to a software as a service model (SAAS) is the logical choice.

I think you got it the wrong way around. Hotmail had 8.5 million subscribers when Microsoft bought the service back in 1997. According to the Microsoft internal documents they had 230 million active users in 2005. That would be 23 times more than Google's Gmail now.

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#179124 20-Nov-2008 18:34

I thought hotmail use had dropped off significantly but I didn't realise the usage was that high to begin with. It would be interesting to know what their definition of "active" user is. For example I use a very old hotmail address to log into msn messenger but I never actually use the email account for anything or login to webmail for it.

freakalad

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#179126 20-Nov-2008 18:45

Activity, in my case, stems from hotmail being my first email addresses from WAAAAAAAAAAAY back in the day, when it was still "cool" & was handy to give out to folks to get in touch with you.
What was pretty nifty, was that it enabled you to do "that IM-thing"

Back then, users has a grand-total of 10MB space, and they frequently simply threw away ALL my mail.

I've kept my hotmail since then, because I found it really handy when I simply HAD to provide an email address, so it's VERY well suited for attracting nothing more than garbage.
Funnily enough, other ms tech I've been using was also amazingly proficient at attracting garbage.

Very occasionally, I get a blast from the past, as some old chum tries to get in touch or something.

I suspect many "active" users use it similarly, as you are unable to seriously depend on it

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#179143 20-Nov-2008 21:21

Funny Freakalad, my gmail which I only use for close friends and known sources for emailing, yet it is a spam bucket!!! My hotmail however on the other hand, which I have only use it mainly for Windows Live ID and MSN, and occassionally checking MSN newsletter... doesn't get much spam, perhaps 3-6 whenever I do check (a running 30 days figure), where my Gmail which I check everyday can collect up to 20 spams at any one time I get on there to check mail.

Gmail sure is spambucket for me, which nice enough lives in spam folder, but is my hotmail's measely spam mails.

Internet is my backyard...

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