A potential TPP gotcha

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#1404197 12-Oct-2015 11:04

Fred99:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

It probably has. Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations.

I do believe that before ratification takes place it should be opened up for all to see and the sent to select committee and also open to public submission.

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#1404202 12-Oct-2015 11:10

Fred99:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

It probably has. Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations.

Well said. I see that Labour are now saying that the TPP fails 4 out of their 5 'Bottom Lines'. With Hilary Clinton also against the TPP, my hope is that most countries around the Pacific Rim reject this power grab by big American businesses and send them packing. The gains are minimal yet the cost -- particularly in terms of electronic freedom -- is huge.

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#1404206 12-Oct-2015 11:13

MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

Actually, until it has been signed we simply don't know.

We KNOW the MPAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW the RIAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW all about Patent trolls in the USA
We KNOW health care costs twice as much in the US as it does here.
We KNOW the oil industry in the US is damaging the environment (fracking anyone)
We KNOW how lobby groups in the US have enormous power
We KNOW that investor state nations have sued others
We KNOW US corporations had a hand in draughting sections of the TPPA (while our elected officials were not privy to the same info)

And the 2 Billion benefit, well the 2008-2009 drought cost us 2.8 Billion.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/drought-costs-nz-28-billion

The "Benefits" are in the noise level of the economy, a good/bad season will have a greater impact.

Just work on the basis that the "rewards" will be about 1/2 what the government promises and the bad will be atlas twice as bad.

On that basis, it might be at best worth a couple of hundred million if we are lucky. And we only need to be sued by one company for most of that to go west.

sir1963

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#1404212 12-Oct-2015 11:15

MikeB4:
Fred99:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

It probably has. Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations.

I do believe that before ratification takes place it should be opened up for all to see and the sent to select committee and also open to public submission.

Better yet, make it part of our flag referendum.

Ultimately both are about NZ as a nation and our national sovereignty and identity.

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#1404216 12-Oct-2015 11:20

sir1963:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

Actually, until it has been signed we simply don't know.

We KNOW the MPAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW the RIAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW all about Patent trolls in the USA
We KNOW health care costs twice as much in the US as it does here.
We KNOW the oil industry in the US is damaging the environment (fracking anyone)
We KNOW how lobby groups in the US have enormous power
We KNOW that investor state nations have sued others
We KNOW US corporations had a hand in draughting sections of the TPPA (while our elected officials were not privy to the same info)

And the 2 Billion benefit, well the 2008-2009 drought cost us 2.8 Billion.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/drought-costs-nz-28-billion

The "Benefits" are in the noise level of the economy, a good/bad season will have a greater impact.

Just work on the basis that the "rewards" will be about 1/2 what the government promises and the bad will be atlas twice as bad.

On that basis, it might be at best worth a couple of hundred million if we are lucky. And we only need to be sued by one company for most of that to go west.

sort of my point, when things are down under a veil FUD is generated. When done in the open FUD is destroyed.

sir1963

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#1404226 12-Oct-2015 11:35

MikeB4:
sir1963:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

Actually, until it has been signed we simply don't know.

We KNOW the MPAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW the RIAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW all about Patent trolls in the USA
We KNOW health care costs twice as much in the US as it does here.
We KNOW the oil industry in the US is damaging the environment (fracking anyone)
We KNOW how lobby groups in the US have enormous power
We KNOW that investor state nations have sued others
We KNOW US corporations had a hand in draughting sections of the TPPA (while our elected officials were not privy to the same info)

And the 2 Billion benefit, well the 2008-2009 drought cost us 2.8 Billion.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/drought-costs-nz-28-billion

The "Benefits" are in the noise level of the economy, a good/bad season will have a greater impact.

Just work on the basis that the "rewards" will be about 1/2 what the government promises and the bad will be atlas twice as bad.

On that basis, it might be at best worth a couple of hundred million if we are lucky. And we only need to be sued by one company for most of that to go west.

sort of my point, when things are down under a veil FUD is generated. When done in the open FUD is destroyed.

Another issue is that the politicians are not actually held liable for their errors.

They stick "at risk" MPs they want to save in safe seats or at the top of the party list to ensure they get in
Even if they screw up badly and don't get into power, they still get into government
They get rewarded later with "appointments" overseas.
They get a gold plated pension.

There needs to be far more accountability than just an election.

For a start, get rid of the higher salaries commission, make ALL positions fixed based on the average income (not wage)
If NZ prospers, so do they
If NZ slumps, so do they

Make their pension invested solely into NZ, if the country does well, so do they, if not...well you see what happens.

FIX the amount they can spend on "support staff" as a % of MPs salary. If they want o spend it all on a spin doctor rather than a analyst and secretarial staff, so be it, but once the money is gone, it is gone.

Rikkitic

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#1404228 12-Oct-2015 11:36

Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.

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sir1963

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#1404231 12-Oct-2015 11:45

Rikkitic: Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.

well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !

JWR

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#1404339 12-Oct-2015 13:58

sir1963:
Rikkitic: Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.

well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !

There is very little that Rodney Hide says that makes any sense.

Look at his argument (personal attack) against Professor Jane Kelsey.

- Marxism is a failed doctrine.

- Jane Kelsey was taught by Marxists, she is a Marxist and therefore she is wrong.

That could easily be adapted to...

- The ACT party is a failed party.

- Rodney Hide was the leader, his ideas are flawed and therefore he is wrong.

Getting back to the TPPA... Some things will clearly be more expensive for the New Zealand consumer.

Is there anything that will be cheaper? I can't think of anything so far.

shk292

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#1404351 12-Oct-2015 14:08

sir1963:
Rikkitic: Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.

well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !

Could you clarify where you think he is lying? I can't see it myself

sir1963

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#1404368 12-Oct-2015 14:30

shk292:
sir1963:
Rikkitic: Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.

well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !

Could you clarify where you think he is lying? I can't see it myself

"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."

Please tell me WHO has agreed ? Not NZ, not the USA, not Australia, nor Japan nor any other parties to the negotiations.
One could say the TPPA has not been agreed to by any nation, and Miracle of Miracles , the sun still shines, and be as accurate.

There are NO signatures and NO agreement yet. It is at best an "offer". More over it is an agreement between multiple parties, even if NZ signs
the rest can refuse and there is still no agreement.

Until it has been signed it has no legal standing. Our copyright is still at 50 years not 70. Our ability to import generics medicines has not changed, there are no investor state nation clauses we are bound to, in fact there is not one clause in that agreement that has any standing what so ever. So all of those tariffs he talks about being gone are still there, no change, not one of them is gone.

Rodney Hyde is not stupid, he fully understands this, and he knew what he said was untrue. Its either that or we have to accept that the ACT party put a moron in as leader.

What WILL be interesting is that all of that literature, art, music, film that is between 50-70 years old.... what happens.
I can legally copy it now, can I be prosecuted for piracy afterwards ?

shk292

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#1404400 12-Oct-2015 14:38

sir1963:

"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."

Please tell me WHO has agreed ??

All of the negotiating parties have agreed what the deal should be; the deal has been agreed. Nobody has said it has been signed (well, actually some of the anti-TPPA commenters on the article have).

The content of the TPP has been agreed; now the democratically elected governments get to choose whether they ratify it. They don't get to choose to amend it, or sign up to bits of it - because the content has already been agreed.

The only way in which Rodney has lied, is if you define lying as "saying something with which I disagree". I'm not saying I agree with him, but he hasn't lied

sir1963

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#1404432 12-Oct-2015 14:59

shk292:
sir1963:

"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."

Please tell me WHO has agreed ??

All of the negotiating parties have agreed what the deal should be; the deal has been agreed. Nobody has said it has been signed (well, actually some of the anti-TPPA commenters on the article have).

The content of the TPP has been agreed; now the democratically elected governments get to choose whether they ratify it. They don't get to choose to amend it, or sign up to bits of it - because the content has already been agreed.

The only way in which Rodney has lied, is if you define lying as "saying something with which I disagree". I'm not saying I agree with him, but he hasn't lied

The wording of the offer has been agreed to by the negotiators.

This is the equivalent to lawyers agreeing on the text in a sales and purchase agreement for a house.
However BOTH the vendor and the purchaser need to agree and sign, until that time there is no agreement.

I can come to your house a million times with the Auckland Law Society (the standard agreement) sale and purchase agreement, but I sure as hell can't tell any of your neighbours "the deal has now been agreed".

NO country has yet agreed to anything and util such time they do and sign, there is no deal. Any and all countries can reject it.

Rodney is clearly intimating that the TPPA has been signed "the deal has now been agreed". He is not saying the wording has been agreed to, he is not saying the negotiations have agreed to the contents of a document, he is clearly intimating the agreement has been completed and it has made zero difference to NZ and its economy.

THAT is untrue.

gzt

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#1404436 12-Oct-2015 15:04

Kyanar:
cruxis:

It is get the rugbygames onto a pc so I could use Emby to stream it out to a location without mysky, works a treat.

Looking further into TPP Such I usefull thing now gets a harsh penalty now.

Never mind the TPP, that was already illegal. You broke copyright law twice, actually - once when you copied it from the MySky to the PC, and again when you rebroadcasted it. And rebroadcasting is a huge no-no. Pretty sure they always pursue that as commercial copyright infringement, which is actually a criminal offence. (I do not believe that charge would actually stick in this case, but you certainly would get a fine. Probably a hefty one because IRB are pretty aggressive).

I'm not sure that offence exists at present.

shk292

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#1404608 12-Oct-2015 19:49

sir1963:

Rodney is clearly intimating that the TPPA has been signed "the deal has now been agreed". He is not saying the wording has been agreed to, he is not saying the negotiations have agreed to the contents of a document, he is clearly intimating the agreement has been completed and it has made zero difference to NZ and its economy.

THAT is untrue.

So, you infer a meaning out of RH's words that is not something he said, and then claim he has "outright lied" based on this inaccurate inference.

Sounds like much of the anti-TPP FUD to date, tbh

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