NSA PRISM discussion

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#848895 3-Jul-2013 18:47

* The Russian mafia decides that running botnets is a mugs game and just breaks into the GCSB's database to steal the whole conveniently compiled set of naked ex-girlfriend pictures/internet banking passwords at source
* The Chinese government, which previously had trouble getting into GMail, hacks the GCSB and just siphons it off from there

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#848896 3-Jul-2013 18:50

* You have the outrageous opinion that after you bought a DVD you should have the moral right to rip it to your computer so you can watch it on your iPad, and you discuss this actually-illegal activity in your email
* You're receiving bills from Netflix in the US, who are under the impression you're actually *in* the US, even though you're not

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#848900 3-Jul-2013 18:53

* Your brother-in-law tells you he is cheating on his US taxes, but that's OK because the NSA isn't spying on him (he's a citizen)

...Tell me when I should stop, right?

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#848905 3-Jul-2013 19:16

A member of a political party who works for GCSB uses their reach to uncover dirt on other party politicians.

Jon

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#848908 3-Jul-2013 19:27

jonherries: A member of a political party who works for GCSB uses their reach to uncover dirt on other party politicians.

Jon

But that would never hap- Ooooooh...

Well played, sir!

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#848910 3-Jul-2013 19:27

SaltyNZ: * Your brother-in-law tells you he is cheating on his US taxes, but that's OK because the NSA isn't spying on him (he's a citizen)

...Tell me when I should stop, right?

You were on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot too? And what about the American made missile that hit the pentagon.....

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#848914 3-Jul-2013 19:33

bigal_nz:
SaltyNZ: * Your brother-in-law tells you he is cheating on his US taxes, but that's OK because the NSA isn't spying on him (he's a citizen)

...Tell me when I should stop, right?

You were on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot too? And what about the American made missile that hit the pentagon.....

I think the point Salty makes is that this is the thin end of the wedge.

Just remember, we have done this before in New Zealand, there was a great book written about the Dawn Raids, you should read it.

Jon

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#848921 3-Jul-2013 19:50

Found the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/347268.Sons_for_the_Return_Home

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#848922 3-Jul-2013 19:51

jonherries:

I think the point Salty makes is that this is the thin end of the wedge.

Just remember, we have done this before in New Zealand, there was a great book written about the Dawn Raids, you should read it.

Jon

Exactly. And the power to decide who spys on who, and what they get to read, vests solely in the Prime Minister after these new laws are passed. All he has to do to change the rules is to say it is his belief that it is required for the purposes of national security. No parliamentary debate is required. No judicial oversight is required. And he doesn't have to explain his reasons if he feels that would compromise national security.

At any time the PM is free to secretly change the secret rules and keep the reasons secret.

In other words, there are no checks on the power of the Prime Minister once these new laws go into effect. Oh, sure, they'll still need a warrant to see (for example) the actual image files you've been looking at on the web, but they won't need it to see that you were browsing 208.88.180.54, because that's only metadata. But once they know that, they don't need the warrant for your data any more.

It seems to me that this idea is either self-evident or completely incomprehensible, with basically nothing in between. Either it's totally obvious that you shouldn't trust professional liars with your most personal secrets, or you can't understand why anyone wouldn't. I don't think I've ever seen anyone on either side of the debate be convinced otherwise.

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#848965 3-Jul-2013 22:00

bigal_nz:
SaltyNZ: * Your brother-in-law tells you he is cheating on his US taxes, but that's OK because the NSA isn't spying on him (he's a citizen)

...Tell me when I should stop, right?

You were on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot too? And what about the American made missile that hit the pentagon.....

Very different things. One thing is "conspiracy theory" and another is entertain the idea that politicians and other people with access can use data legally collected for illegal activities. Not a long stretch. just need a bad apple.

Or how do you think the Stasi and KGB worked, spying on their own citizens for the "security of the state"?

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#848986 3-Jul-2013 22:37

I couldn't care less if they look at my data, meta or not, but as a average citizen I'm pretty sure they are not.

I couldn't care if they pass info on to the tax department or not cause I pay my taxes but Im pretty sure they dont.

The government needs powers to intercept communications or do we expect them to prevent terrorism with magic.

There are people in NZ with such purposes.

Mauricio: Thinking that the gcsb or nsa will mine data and pass it on to all these other government agencies like ird for unpaid tax is conspiracy. I have never heard such rubbish.

You must think the people at these places have nothing better to do than look at the data of common people?

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#848988 3-Jul-2013 22:42

bigal_nz:

The government needs powers to intercept communications or do we expect them to prevent terrorism with magic.

I use magic to defend my house against terrorists, and there have NEVER been any attacks on it. Therefore, my magic works. I won't tell you how. But if you agree to send me all your internet banking passwords, I will extend my magical protection to your place too. It's for your own good.

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#848991 3-Jul-2013 22:47

SaltyNZ:
bigal_nz:

The government needs powers to intercept communications or do we expect them to prevent terrorism with magic.

I use magic to defend my house against terrorists, and there have NEVER been any attacks on it. Therefore, my magic works. I won't tell you how. But if you agree to send me all your internet banking passwords, I will extend my magical protection to your place too. It's for your own good.

Thats right "Mr Bourne" - your magic has protected you well over the years from all the government agents trying to kill you...you are such a important target and threat to the government.

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#849007 3-Jul-2013 23:03

I did not mention specific cases such as IRD in my reply. Please do not put that as my opinion. Your argument is automatically invalidate because of such fallacy.

Some trust governments blindly and this is bad. No power should be given without corresponding control and limits.

Once you give up rights to a government it is pretty hard to get them back.

The government says intelligence collection is needed to prevent a terror attack like the Boston bombings. But all the intelligence the USA collects didn't prevent that happening. The argument is at minimum invalid if not complete FUD.

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#849012 3-Jul-2013 23:25

...
Some trust governments blindly and this is bad. No power should be given without corresponding control and limits.

Once you give up rights to a government it is pretty hard to get them back.
....

Well said.

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