Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) WTF?

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testha

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#101857 10-May-2012 15:02

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10804415

Interesting read on how far the governmnet is willing to go.

What I dont get is, how can another country overrule local NZ law? That just doesnt make sense to me.

SaltyNZ

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#622900 10-May-2012 15:08

I take you've never heard of Kim Dotcom then? :-D

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Kyanar

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#622957 10-May-2012 16:04

I'm pleased to see the local media taking up the cause of making this disgusting treaty known - though disappointed it took this long. Those of us who follow these types of things have known about TPPA, and just how toothless it makes ACTA look, for some time.

I see the media haven't jumped yet on the effective outlawing of PHARMAC that the US pharma industry lobbyists are pushing for as well.

Basically, the treaty works by forcing the governments who sign it to pass a law basically allowing an "independent tribunal" (Tui billboard goes here) to issue orders with the force of law to the governments. Basically it doesn't give them the power to overrule our government, it's our government giving them the power to act as extra-judicial courts, with no right of appeal. Hence the Ecuador ruling. And they've already shown that they don't care if it is against the founding principles of the country too, hence the ruling by the tribunal forcing the Ecuadorian government to essentially violate their constitution by vetoing a court ruling.

oxnsox

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#622959 10-May-2012 16:05

If there is truth to the comments in that article it is not a good thing. NZ does not need to prostrate itself before the greenback, especially when our trading future appears to be focused on the growing economies in Asia and South America.

Our own Government, by contrast, has demonstrated in its dealings with overseas corporations like Warner Bros, Sky City and Shanghai Pengxin how far it is prepared to go to accommodate overseas business interests. We have good reason to fear that the TPP will continue that process.

Throwing Shanghai Pengxin in there is a little spurious though I feel.

Byrned

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#622964 10-May-2012 16:09

So, have you just read the article and formed an opinion or have you read a lot more about this topic and formed an opinion? I only ask as forming an opinion on what the NZ Herald or any of the media's opinions is a dangerous thing to do!

Another country cannot overrule NZ law, but we can agree to be part of a process which would hold us accountable to whatever convention (or partnership in this instance) we sign to. Kind of similar to the Geneva Conventions on the humanitarian treatment of war victims. NZ law stands, but if we don't uphold our obligations under this law then as a signatory to this I believe the UN or the International Courts step in.

One (of many) proposals of the TPP is that country's can in effect be treated as a business by another business. Effectively what this is supposedly going to allow is (for example) Government adversely changes laws for a company, causing losses. Shareholders of that company could then sue the Government for damages. I imagine there would be fairly high standards of proof required to successfully do this. I do see this part of the TPP as something of an issue as the last thing we want is to end up constantly in litigation like the great patent wars at the moment.

This is one part where we should be following Australia's example and just say no. Early days yet so who knows where it'll end up, if anywhere!

Note, I could be wrong on a lot of what I have written as it is what I have digested and interpreted from my reading so far.

Byrned

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#622970 10-May-2012 16:14

Kyanar:
I see the media haven't jumped yet on the effective outlawing of PHARMAC that the US pharma industry lobbyists are pushing for as well.

Bit sensationalist don't ya think?

I don't believe to date anything has been SPECIFICALLY said about Pharmac other than one of the main positions that the US is taking is protecting intellectual property, which considering it is one of there main exports, you can understand this. Bit like us being protective of Agriculture. And I believe us opening up Pharmac has the same likelihood of the US dropping tarifs for Agriculture.

old3eyes

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#622995 10-May-2012 16:41

Byrned:
Kyanar:
I see the media haven't jumped yet on the effective outlawing of PHARMAC that the US pharma industry lobbyists are pushing for as well.

Bit sensationalist don't ya think?

I don't believe to date anything has been SPECIFICALLY said about Pharmac other than one of the main positions that the US is taking is protecting intellectual property, which considering it is one of there main exports, you can understand this. Bit like us being protective of Agriculture. And I believe us opening up Pharmac has the same likelihood of the US dropping tarifs for Agriculture.

Pharmac has always been one of the things that must go before NZ gets a FTA with the US. If it goes expect the cost of drugs to go up quite a bit as the US companies rape and pillage in the name of free trade..

Regards,

Old3eyes

Kyanar

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#623005 10-May-2012 16:47

Byrned:
Kyanar:
I see the media haven't jumped yet on the effective outlawing of PHARMAC that the US pharma industry lobbyists are pushing for as well.

Bit sensationalist don't ya think?

I don't believe to date anything has been SPECIFICALLY said about Pharmac other than one of the main positions that the US is taking is protecting intellectual property, which considering it is one of there main exports, you can understand this. Bit like us being protective of Agriculture. And I believe us opening up Pharmac has the same likelihood of the US dropping tarifs for Agriculture.

Not entirely. A segment was leaked at one point which talked about setting up a regime allowing for pharma companies to sue government agencies which "unfairly fail to recognise the value of the intellectual property included in pharmaceutical products when making reimbursement decisions". And as we all know, pharmaceutical companies seem to believe their "intellectual property" is worth billions and billions of dollars... per pill (bit of hyperbole there, but you get the point).

So yes, while they aren't specifically trying to outlaw PHARMAC, especially specifically by name, they are essentially wanting the power of such agencies gutted to the point where it's essentially a waste of time having the agency, when every decision they make will result in a lawsuit about the "value of the patents not being recognised". PHARMAC isn't the only one affected, even USA's Medicaid would be gutted by such a clause being included.

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stevenz

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#623011 10-May-2012 16:52

Should be not be concentrating more on keeping India and China happy than worrying about America too much in the long term?

@KnightNZ

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#623014 10-May-2012 16:57

Kyanar: I'm pleased to see the local media taking up the cause of making this disgusting treaty known...

Lobbying is strong from every side. Almost every single month we have to take sides on a new treaty.

Tiring really, but eternal vigilance is needed.

Linuxluver

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#623018 10-May-2012 17:02

testha: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10804415

Interesting read on how far the governmnet is willing to go.

What I dont get is, how can another country overrule local NZ law? That just doesnt make sense to me.

It's been obvious since the Shipley coup rolled Jim Bolger that the National Party is now - effectively - the "Multi-National 1% Party - NZ Branch".

Or just call them the "Corporate Party" for short....with a side order of knee-jerk wedge issues for the socially bigoted, economic illiterates. Modelled on the Republican Party in the US....right down to unsustainable tax cuts for the wealthy to create a deficit to justify dismantling government and privatising it for the benefit of....CORPORATES!

TVNZ? Pull the wings off our public asset and effectively hand the business to Sky, 44% owned by - RUPERT MURDOCH! You know...the phone-tapping war monger who owns Fox News.

This is the government people get when they don't know enough to vote competently.

If I had a $ for every time a National party voter told me: "I don't really know much about politics and Key seems like a decent sort."......I'd be rich man.

So TPPA?

They will sell New Zealand out for the - maybe - benefit of farmers. Except they are also opening the door to corporate farming....and if you don't know where that goes....you REALLY need to find out: Foreign-owned and effectively unaccountable as TPPA will put them above the government. If you pass a law that hurts their profits, they will be able to sue the taxpayers for damages.

Insane stuff.

National isn't interested in democracy. They threw away Environment Canterbury because they wouldn't give the farmers the water.....and appointed the head of the pro-irrigation lobby to run the dictatorship they imposed.

King Gerry rules Christchurch.

In Auckland, National threw away 116 elected councillors across Auckland and gave us a 20 member Council elected by First Past the Post. That resulted in 15 of the 20 Councillors not even getting 40% of the vote in their wards....and across Auckland 62.5% of the votes cast didn't elect even ONE of those 20 councillors. In Albany ward, 80% of the vote didn't elect anyone. The two winners both failed to get 10% of the vote each.

Now they want to sell off part of the state power companies...and give the minority 49% the whip hand over the 51% majority government ownership.

If THAT doesn't make obvious what these thieves are up to, nothing can.

If you're paying attention....this government is one of the worst New Zealand has ever had.

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stevenz

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#623024 10-May-2012 17:12

Well said that man.

Mr Key seems to be a big fan of the Ostrich approach to politics lately.

@KnightNZ

Linuxluver

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#623025 10-May-2012 17:12

oxnsox: If there is truth to the comments in that article it is not a good thing. NZ does not need to prostrate itself before the greenback, especially when our trading future appears to be focused on the growing economies in Asia and South America.
Our own Government, by contrast, has demonstrated in its dealings with overseas corporations like Warner Bros, Sky City and Shanghai Pengxin how far it is prepared to go to accommodate overseas business interests. We have good reason to fear that the TPP will continue that process.

Throwing Shanghai Pengxin in there is a little spurious though I feel.

Not at all. They are a proxy for this government's toadying to China. If it wasn't this deal, it would have been some other.

It looks very much like this government plans to sell off our energy assets to Chinese government infrastructure corporations....who have already said they have $6 billion ear-marked for our energy assets.

National say "NO" to that? All the evidence runs the other way.

Adding: I have noting against China at all. I am, however, very much against a government that puts narrow business interests ahead of sovereignty and the long term strategic view.

With Peak Oil already well underway, selling state energy assets NOW is criminally stupid....if you have new Zealand's interests at heart. If you just want to rape the taxpayer and make off like bandits....it makes perfect sense.

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Linuxluver

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#623370 11-May-2012 09:10

Kyanar:
So yes, while they aren't specifically trying to outlaw PHARMAC, especially specifically by name, they are essentially wanting the power of such agencies gutted to the point where it's essentially a waste of time having the agency, when every decision they make will result in a lawsuit about the "value of the patents not being recognised". PHARMAC isn't the only one affected, even USA's Medicaid would be gutted by such a clause being included.

If National allow / enable this to happen, then there can be NO doubt the "National" in their name doesn't refer to New Zealand. It is some other country's interest they represent.

When I arrived in New Zealand in 1982, I worked out pretty quickly they were a party I could never vote for. Their ethics were obviously dodgy then....(Muldoon...) and have become steadily worse since.

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JBO

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#635549 4-Jun-2012 17:20

If we agree to this Partnership and it still contains the ability for our Government to be sued by corporations, it really is the beginning of the end.