What's reasonable - Dishwasher Fault

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dafman

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#1965618 28-Feb-2018 10:51

networkn:

Is it at the retailer/Manufacturers discretion that they refund or replace? Bosch have said if I want a refund they will consider it, but they would pro-rata the refund based on it's age.

Doesn't seem right to me. The retailer is insisting it's at THEIR sole discretion as to whether they offer me a replacement or refund. I thought it was actually my fault.

Given we have been dealing with this since September, I have zero confidence in the post sales service from Bosch, or their appliances, getting another one isn't likely to significantly improve the situation so why wouldn't they just refund me and let me be someone elses problem?

I think it is at their discretion. And for them to offer a new machine after you have been using the old one for three years is a very good outcome IMHO.

When you first noticed the issue, Bosch requested to take the machine back to look into it the fault. You said no, and continued to use the machine for several years before going back to them. My view is that when you said no for them to look into the fault, you lost any leverage to demand a refund at some future point.

I'd look at this glass half full, rather than glass half empty. Bosch are giving you a brand new machine to replace a three-year old machine. I think that's a pretty good outcome.

sir1963

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#1965623 28-Feb-2018 10:54

networkn:

Is it at the retailer/Manufacturers discretion that they refund or replace? Bosch have said if I want a refund they will consider it, but they would pro-rata the refund based on it's age.

Doesn't seem right to me. The retailer is insisting it's at THEIR sole discretion as to whether they offer me a replacement or refund. I thought it was actually my fault.

Given we have been dealing with this since September, I have zero confidence in the post sales service from Bosch, or their appliances, getting another one isn't likely to significantly improve the situation so why wouldn't they just refund me and let me be someone elses problem?

YOU have the right to demand a fix for the problem

THEY have the options of repair, replace, or refund.

There is some variance where repair/replace is not viable because of the time delays and you have the right to demand a refund, and it is NOT pro-rata based.

Get a copy of the CGA and read it, there is also a lot of government sites that have examples of differing situations, expectation and what your rights are under these.

networkn

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#1965628 28-Feb-2018 10:55

dafman:

networkn:

Is it at the retailer/Manufacturers discretion that they refund or replace? Bosch have said if I want a refund they will consider it, but they would pro-rata the refund based on it's age.

Doesn't seem right to me. The retailer is insisting it's at THEIR sole discretion as to whether they offer me a replacement or refund. I thought it was actually my fault.

Given we have been dealing with this since September, I have zero confidence in the post sales service from Bosch, or their appliances, getting another one isn't likely to significantly improve the situation so why wouldn't they just refund me and let me be someone elses problem?

I think it is at their discretion. And for them to offer a new machine after you have been using the old one for three years is a very good outcome IMHO.

When you first noticed the issue, Bosch requested to take the machine back to look into it the fault. You said no, and continued to use the machine for several years before going back to them. My view is that when you said no for them to look into the fault, you lost any leverage to demand a refund at some future point.

I'd look at this glass half full, rather than glass half empty. Bosch are giving you a brand new machine to replace a three-year old machine. I think that's a pretty good outcome.

Except:

Bosch didn't offer us a reasonable solution 3 years ago. They offered to take our BRAND new dishwasher out of our house for an undetermined time, with no replacement offered.

Secondly, this has been going on continuously for 5 months since I raised it with them last year. No reasonable service provider takes 5 months to find a solution to a simple solution to this. They have agreed it's faulty, they don't know what's wrong with it, and parts will take unknown time to arrive without a guaranteed fix. They aren't being nice, they are meeting their legal obligations.

We have had 3 Bosch Dishwashers now. The first had 2 faults and didn't clean properly, we replaced it with our own money on assurances from the retailer the new model was substantially better. It wasn't. The new one was probably worse. Lastly the loan unit doesn't dispense soap properly doesn't clean or dry properly. What are the chances that a 4th dishwasher from the same manufacturer is going to clean dishes, dry dishes and work reliably, and that any issues that come up will be promptly dealt with?

sir1963

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#1965636 28-Feb-2018 11:01

networkn:

dafman:

networkn:

Is it at the retailer/Manufacturers discretion that they refund or replace? Bosch have said if I want a refund they will consider it, but they would pro-rata the refund based on it's age.

Doesn't seem right to me. The retailer is insisting it's at THEIR sole discretion as to whether they offer me a replacement or refund. I thought it was actually my fault.

Given we have been dealing with this since September, I have zero confidence in the post sales service from Bosch, or their appliances, getting another one isn't likely to significantly improve the situation so why wouldn't they just refund me and let me be someone elses problem?

I think it is at their discretion. And for them to offer a new machine after you have been using the old one for three years is a very good outcome IMHO.

When you first noticed the issue, Bosch requested to take the machine back to look into it the fault. You said no, and continued to use the machine for several years before going back to them. My view is that when you said no for them to look into the fault, you lost any leverage to demand a refund at some future point.

I'd look at this glass half full, rather than glass half empty. Bosch are giving you a brand new machine to replace a three-year old machine. I think that's a pretty good outcome.

Except:

Bosch didn't offer us a reasonable solution 3 years ago. They offered to take our BRAND new dishwasher out of our house for an undetermined time, with no replacement offered.

Secondly, this has been going on continuously for 5 months since I raised it with them last year. No reasonable service provider takes 5 months to find a solution to a simple solution to this.

We have had 3 Bosch Dishwashers now. The first had 2 faults and didn't clean properly, we replaced it with our own money on assurances from the retailer the new model was substantially better. It wasn't. The new one was probably worse. Lastly the loan unit doesn't dispense soap properly doesn't clean or dry properly. What are the chances that a 4th dishwasher from the same manufacturer is going to clean dishes, dry dishes and work reliably, and that any issues that come up will be promptly dealt with?

I think the law would decide that you were being unreasonable when you demanded a replacement while the other one was being fixed.

Washing dishes on the other hand is a PITA, but its not unreasonable and thats what happens is most households, when camping/on holiday, etc etc etc.

Indeterminate time could also have been one day, but even a week to 2 weeks would not be unreasonable.

networkn

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#1965639 28-Feb-2018 11:04

If there is a serious problem with the product
You can legally:

keep the product and claim compensation for the loss in value
reject the product and get an identical replacement
reject the product and ask for a full refund.
A credit note is not the same as providing a cash refund. If you have rejected products because of a serious problem and asked for a refund, you don't have to accept a credit note or an exchange of products instead of cash.

A problem with products is serious if:

a reasonable consumer would not have bought the products if they had known about the fault
products are significantly different from their description, sample, or demonstration model
products are not fit for their normal or specific purpose and cannot easily be put right
the products are unsafe.

https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/get-guidance/returns-refunds-and-repairs/faulty-products/

networkn

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#1965841 28-Feb-2018 13:24

sir1963:

I think the law would decide that you were being unreasonable when you demanded a replacement while the other one was being fixed.

Washing dishes on the other hand is a PITA, but its not unreasonable and thats what happens is most households, when camping/on holiday, etc etc etc.

Indeterminate time could also have been one day, but even a week to 2 weeks would not be unreasonable.

I would certainly hope they would not consider it unreasonable. I actually believe the CGA is usually too far-reaching in most cases, but in this instance I don't feel it's unreasonable to take ask for a loan unit in place of a brand new $3000 DW. I could understand it with a toaster.

On reflection, I should have just rejected it outright and sought refund initially, not a mistake I'll make again.

Indeterminate time was estimated to be weeks. If repairs and parts were required, then 6-8 weeks on top of assessment time. What I found frustrating, is when it was new, the reason for the long part lead time was it was such a new diswasher. 3 years later the delay is because it's an old dishwasher! Amazing. I believe Bosch are failing in their CGA/Fair trading responsibilities by failing to have parts on hand for repairs, for a reasonable period of time.

dafman

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#1965861 28-Feb-2018 13:36

networkn:

If there is a serious problem with the product
You can legally:

keep the product and claim compensation for the loss in value
reject the product and get an identical replacement
reject the product and ask for a full refund.
A credit note is not the same as providing a cash refund. If you have rejected products because of a serious problem and asked for a refund, you don't have to accept a credit note or an exchange of products instead of cash.

A problem with products is serious if:

a reasonable consumer would not have bought the products if they had known about the fault
products are significantly different from their description, sample, or demonstration model
products are not fit for their normal or specific purpose and cannot easily be put right
the products are unsafe.

https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/get-guidance/returns-refunds-and-repairs/faulty-products/

Re the CGA's right to reject the product and ask for a full refund. The appropriate time to reject the product was when the fault first appeared. You didn't reject it, rather you continued to use the appliance for three years. And to further complicate things, you rejected an offer from the supplier to investigate the fault when it first appeared and the machine was new. I think your ‘right to demand a refund’ ship has well and truly sailed on this one. Take the generous offer of a brand-new replacement and put it behind you.

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mattwnz

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#1965916 28-Feb-2018 14:44

IANAL. The thing is you don't know a fault is substantial or not until it is investigated properly. dishwasher that fails to work is potentially a major failure, but the fault that caused the failure maybe a simple fuse or a blown $100 circuit board that needs replacing. SO it probably wouldn't be a loss of substantial character in that case IMO. I had a dishwasher fail, and it ended up being a failed board after a cockroch got into it and fried itself. You could argue it should be sealed to prevent insects getting in to prevent that happening, but it ended up being a $500 repair, which is the price of a new dishwasher these days. Part of the problem is that parts are so expensive and there is no way to get better pricing on parts unless they are generic, as that is what the service agent charges. IMO there needs to be some regulation around spare parts, as was shown with replacement car key fobs recently.

Geektastic

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#1965945 28-Feb-2018 15:06

You're way more patient than me. I would have scrapped it and replaced it myself and moved on by now!

networkn

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#1965948 28-Feb-2018 15:10

Geektastic:

You're way more patient than me. I would have scrapped it and replaced it myself and moved on by now!

On principle, I don't feel that reasonable. We did it once with Bosch. They swore black and blue the new models were better. Unsurprisingly, are claiming the same this time, though reviews seem to back those claims up, whereas the prior models review very poorly.

The thing is the features and layout, and appearance of the Bosch is really top shelf. It's frustrating it won't clean or dry properly.

I am going to persist with the refund, if worst comes to worst, we can take the replacement, and if it doesn't clean, reject it immediately and request a refund.

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