A question of water and wiring

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Tronhar

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#230296 17-Feb-2018 08:55

My landlord has removed a previous shower that was put in before they purchased the property.

When the contractors began doing the work for the new shower they discovered the previous work appears to have been done by a non-professional without a permit. In opening up the wall cavity it was discovered that the shower outlet is directly above a standard power point located on the other face of the wall and without any separation between the two. I am concerned that this is not safe and if the shower outlet leaks, water will cascade down onto the power box and cause a short circuit or fire.

My understanding (and logic suggests) that this is not to code and that the power point would need to be moved to a location further along the wall away from the shower fittings. If that is the case I assume that until work is done to remedy this situations their insurance will be void.

I want to approach the owners and rental agency to advise them of this but want to be reasonably sure that I am correct and not barking up the wrong tree. The landlords are really nice people and I am sensitive to the fact that this has cost them much more than they expected already, so I am looking for any alternative to make the arrangement safe and to code for everyone's protection.

Any information and regulations I can refer to regarding this would be helpful.

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#1959471 17-Feb-2018 09:05

Oh dear that's a tough one. I presume this is Auckland? The land of cowboys doing illegal building works using fake materials?

This sounds really dangerous.

I think you should bring it up to the landlord and at the very least request an electrician to inspect. At the very least he can disconnect the socket and stop it from electrocuting your family.

gregmcc

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#1959482 17-Feb-2018 09:37

How about a photo as it's not really clear about the relationship between the location of the shower outlet and the electrical outlet, or even a hand drawn sketch

Some measurements between the 2 would be good just to confirm if ok or not

Tronhar

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#1959499 17-Feb-2018 10:20

I've been working on that! :-)

Here is a drawing of the original layout:

Click to see full size

This is what the layout looked like when the landlords bought the place: The pipes that previously ran up the wall (now removed) were redirected to the shared wall to the room behind. To hide the plumbing a tile box similar to ones for putting your shampoo etc. was put in. The pipes were directed as you see them in the third photo. What you cannot see is that the two pipes to to a mixer (between them) and a pipe then runs horizontally to the outlet to the shower hose pretty well directly above the PP.

Click to see full size

This is a photo of the new shower base. You can see in the top of picture the power outlet in the next room.

The two pipes directed up the wall go to the mixer, which then sends a pipe to the outlet to the shower hose, lying directly above the PP.

Click to see full size

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#1959509 17-Feb-2018 10:48

Or if they refuse propose a deal where if electrician finds nothing wrong you pay.

Tronhar

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#1959514 17-Feb-2018 10:55

Hi Batman:

I am concerned that the owners have no idea this is an issue. The property manager obviously believed that the outlet above the PP was no longer used, yet in the end that is what has happened. I don't want anyone to be at risk about this, so if, having established (via this community) that my concerns are valid, I plan to write to the PM to get them to follow up. Right now I just need to know if this IS a breach of the wiring regs - that confirms if their insurance is void. If not then the option to investigate further is theirs.

gregmcc

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#1959516 17-Feb-2018 10:58

Tronhar:

I've been working on that! :-)

Here is a drawing of the original layout:

This is what the layout looked like when the landlords bought the place: The pipes that previously ran up the wall (now removed) were redirected to the shared wall to the room behind. To hide the plumbing a tile box similar to ones for putting your shampoo etc. was put in. The pipes were directed as you see them in the third photo. What you cannot see is that the two pipes to to a mixer (between them) and a pipe then runs horizontally to the outlet to the shower hose pretty well directly above the PP.

This is a photo of the new shower base. You can see in the top of picture the power outlet in the next room.

The two pipes directed up the wall go to the mixer, which then sends a pipe to the outlet to the shower hose, lying directly above the PP.

Looking at the pictures the power point is actually on the wall of another room that backs on to the shower wall, in this case there is no problem as the key is "safe under normal conditions"

This power point under normal conditions would not be in a damp area (such as a bathroom), a leaking pipe or fitting dripping down the inside of the wall and getting the wiring and the back of the power point wet would not be normal conditions.

The proposed new layout looks good to me as the defined damp areas AS/NZS3000 (electrical wiring standard) do not extend through the surface of the wall to a power point on the other side of the same wall

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Tronhar

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#1959524 17-Feb-2018 11:09

Ironically, the reason the whole thing has just been rebuilt is because there was a major leak that originated in the pipes to the mixer, resulting in flooding to the bedroom behind and the hallway to that room - located on the left wall of the shower in the photo. That was a MAJOR leak under pressure. So there is history here.

gzt

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#1959525 17-Feb-2018 11:11

Did the area around the point get wet in that deluge?

Tronhar

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#1959548 17-Feb-2018 11:49

Hi GZT:

As I tried to explain the area that flooded on that occasion was on the right of the stud, so it was separated from the PP. To the best of my knowledge no work was done on the pipe from the mixer to the outlet for the hose, which IS above the PP.

sparkz25

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#1959593 17-Feb-2018 13:26

gregmcc:

Tronhar:

I've been working on that! :-)

Here is a drawing of the original layout:

This is what the layout looked like when the landlords bought the place: The pipes that previously ran up the wall (now removed) were redirected to the shared wall to the room behind. To hide the plumbing a tile box similar to ones for putting your shampoo etc. was put in. The pipes were directed as you see them in the third photo. What you cannot see is that the two pipes to to a mixer (between them) and a pipe then runs horizontally to the outlet to the shower hose pretty well directly above the PP.

This is a photo of the new shower base. You can see in the top of picture the power outlet in the next room.

The two pipes directed up the wall go to the mixer, which then sends a pipe to the outlet to the shower hose, lying directly above the PP.

Looking at the pictures the power point is actually on the wall of another room that backs on to the shower wall, in this case there is no problem as the key is "safe under normal conditions"

This power point under normal conditions would not be in a damp area (such as a bathroom), a leaking pipe or fitting dripping down the inside of the wall and getting the wiring and the back of the power point wet would not be normal conditions.

The proposed new layout looks good to me as the defined damp areas AS/NZS3000 (electrical wiring standard) do not extend through the surface of the wall to a power point on the other side of the same wall

all of this reply is correct, if the gpo is installed in the shower then that is in Zone 0 which is then illegal, as the powerpoint is on the wall backing on to the shower then that is ok as per the regs

gzt

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#1959597 17-Feb-2018 13:37

The pdf regs appear to back that up:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=nz+electrical+code+of+practice+homeowner

The zone diagrams do not go inside the wall. Plumbing is not mentioned unless it is metal plumbing. That's the way it looks to me.

Having said that, if it was me I would feel exactly the same way and probably pay to have it removed. Could be the landlord will feel the same way and be happy to pay for it.

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nickb800

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#1959598 17-Feb-2018 13:39

So we've established that it's not against code.

Let's think about what would happen if there was a leak (i.e. not normal conditions).

a) you get a series of drips down the wall, some hit the socket and drop out the face of the socket. Provided there is no continuous flow of water, then the water won't be 'live'

b) the wall cavity fills up with water and there is a continuous flow of water out of the of the socket. This conducts both sides of the circuit, creating a short, and tripping the circuit breaker, eliminating hazard.

Basically, I'm pretty sure you'll be fine. But if you find the breaker tripping in a year's time, then you know what's going on

gzt

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#1959600 17-Feb-2018 13:43

^post assumes you have RCD circuit breakers and not some ancient fusebox.

Aredwood

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#1959610 17-Feb-2018 14:12

Are they building a platform for the shower to sit on? Looks like the whole job is getting done on the cheap, if they are not willing to cut the slab a little more. To move the water pipes and waste. So the shower tray can sit directly on the concrete.

Tronhar

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#1959664 17-Feb-2018 18:33

To answer the recent questions:

Yep it is an ancient board with fuses and not circuit breakers

Yep they have raised the shower up to clear the pipes, however that said the pipes were MUCH higher, perhaps 200mm above the previous tile level, so maybe 250mm above the concrete. To get the connections down to where they were they tried capping the pipes just above GL, this failed and flooded the apartment, so they had to jack-hammer down to get to where the photo was taken. Now the shower is complete I have no expectation that the shower itself will be revisited..

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