Legality and/or morality of geoblocking

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#1476184 21-Jan-2016 14:42

NonprayingMantis:

something I just realised

The title of this thread is "Legality and/or morality of geoblocking"

which is not the same thing as "legality and/or morality of getting around geoblocks."

It could well be perfectly legal and moral to use methods to get around geoblocking. (smart DNS etc etc)

It can ALSO be perfectly legal and moral for businesses to implement geoblocks. (IP blocking, etc)

One could argue that using geoblocking is a case of moral turpitude in that it meets the notion of false representation. The user of a method to circumvent a geoblock is knowingly representing that he/she is a falsely representing their location and as such knowingly violating the Terms of Use: "view[ing] a movie or TV show through the Netflix service primarily within the country in which you have established your account and only in geographic locations where we offer our service and have licensed such movie or TV show.".

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sultanoswing

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#1476187 21-Jan-2016 14:44

NonprayingMantis:
something I just realised

The title of this thread is "Legality and/or morality of geoblocking"

which is not the same thing as "legality and/or morality of getting around geoblocks."

It could well be perfectly legal and moral to use methods to get around geoblocking. (smart DNS etc etc)

It can ALSO be perfectly legal and moral for businesses to implement geoblocks. (IP blocking, etc)

Yes, I suspect that simple statement nails it, which explains why this thread is so meandering!

tdgeek

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#1476190 21-Jan-2016 14:57

ockel:

NonprayingMantis:

something I just realised

The title of this thread is "Legality and/or morality of geoblocking"

which is not the same thing as "legality and/or morality of getting around geoblocks."

It could well be perfectly legal and moral to use methods to get around geoblocking. (smart DNS etc etc)

It can ALSO be perfectly legal and moral for businesses to implement geoblocks. (IP blocking, etc)

One could argue that using geoblocking is a case of moral turpitude in that it meets the notion of false representation. The user of a method to circumvent a geoblock is knowingly representing that he/she is a falsely representing their location and as such knowingly violating the Terms of Use: "view[ing] a movie or TV show through the Netflix service primarily within the country in which you have established your account and only in geographic locations where we offer our service and have licensed such movie or TV show.".

Another way to look at it.

Its clearly wrong, as you outline. But a geo bypasser isn't a criminal, often a nice person, everyone does it, it saves money, studios are rich, its a very small jab against society and the economy, and its often cool to criticise the establishment when it doesnt suit my needs. There, I feel cleansed and justified!

As MF said, its minor in the grand scheme of things

SaltyNZ

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#1476195 21-Jan-2016 15:04

tdgeek:

it saves money

TIL I'm the world's worst money saver - I pay for Netflix in USD, and I pay for an additional service that lets me watch out of region.

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ockel

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#1476205 21-Jan-2016 15:24

tdgeek:

ockel:

NonprayingMantis:

something I just realised

The title of this thread is "Legality and/or morality of geoblocking"

which is not the same thing as "legality and/or morality of getting around geoblocks."

It could well be perfectly legal and moral to use methods to get around geoblocking. (smart DNS etc etc)

It can ALSO be perfectly legal and moral for businesses to implement geoblocks. (IP blocking, etc)

One could argue that using geoblocking is a case of moral turpitude in that it meets the notion of false representation. The user of a method to circumvent a geoblock is knowingly representing that he/she is a falsely representing their location and as such knowingly violating the Terms of Use: "view[ing] a movie or TV show through the Netflix service primarily within the country in which you have established your account and only in geographic locations where we offer our service and have licensed such movie or TV show.".

Another way to look at it.

Its clearly wrong, as you outline. But a geo bypasser isn't a criminal, often a nice person, everyone does it, it saves money, studios are rich, its a very small jab against society and the economy, and its often cool to criticise the establishment when it doesnt suit my needs. There, I feel cleansed and justified!

As MF said, its minor in the grand scheme of things

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

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tdgeek

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#1476206 21-Jan-2016 15:29

ockel:

tdgeek:

ockel:

NonprayingMantis:

something I just realised

The title of this thread is "Legality and/or morality of geoblocking"

which is not the same thing as "legality and/or morality of getting around geoblocks."

It could well be perfectly legal and moral to use methods to get around geoblocking. (smart DNS etc etc)

It can ALSO be perfectly legal and moral for businesses to implement geoblocks. (IP blocking, etc)

One could argue that using geoblocking is a case of moral turpitude in that it meets the notion of false representation. The user of a method to circumvent a geoblock is knowingly representing that he/she is a falsely representing their location and as such knowingly violating the Terms of Use: "view[ing] a movie or TV show through the Netflix service primarily within the country in which you have established your account and only in geographic locations where we offer our service and have licensed such movie or TV show.".

Another way to look at it.

Its clearly wrong, as you outline. But a geo bypasser isn't a criminal, often a nice person, everyone does it, it saves money, studios are rich, its a very small jab against society and the economy, and its often cool to criticise the establishment when it doesnt suit my needs. There, I feel cleansed and justified!

As MF said, its minor in the grand scheme of things

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

I think most people see those examples as wrong. Piracy as wrong. But with bypassng blocking I think they see it as right.

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#1476207 21-Jan-2016 15:31

ockel:

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

The difference is all you mention there are illegal things, geo-unblocking is not (or not defined as such).

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#1476209 21-Jan-2016 15:34

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

Have to disagree big time on your analogy. Why should it matter which country (race/eye colour/religion) I am from or have to access a service? If I am a traveller jetsetting to places, you restrict me from accessing your service simply 'cos I stopped over in a different country? To me, bypassing geoblocking is an excellent way of standing up to corporate greed. We pay our hard earned money to access your service but coming up with arguments like "oh now that you are out of US you are not allowed to watch this movie or that movie"...what a load of crap! If you don't want to stream your movie, then don't put it on the Internet, the last time I checked, Internet is/was a place used to get rid of silly man-made geo-restrictions and making things accessible to everyone! To deny a service cos I am in a different country is nothing but a form of racism and sheer stupidity.

Once upon a time, it was legal for only Whites to be offered services and DoS to Blacks. Thank goodness people stood against that.
Once upon a time, in a far away land, it was legal for Jews to be prosecuted!

ockel

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#1476216 21-Jan-2016 15:39

freitasm:

ockel:

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

The difference is all you mention there are illegal things, geo-unblocking is not (or not defined as such).

I'm pretty sure that cheating in an exam is not illegal. It is usually a violation of the rules and regulations and sanctionable. But not legally a crime. These are all examples of moral turpitude. At some point in the sliding scale they move from being immoral and legal to being immoral and illegal.

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tdgeek

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#1476221 21-Jan-2016 15:44

weera2500:

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

Have to disagree big time on your analogy. Why should it matter which country (race/eye colour/religion) I am from or have to access a service? If I am a traveller jetsetting to places, you restrict me from accessing your service simply 'cos I stopped over in a different country? To me, bypassing geoblocking is an excellent way of standing up to corporate greed. We pay our hard earned money to access your service but coming up with arguments like "oh now that you are out of US you are not allowed to watch this movie or that movie"...what a load of crap! If you don't want to stream your movie, then don't put it on the Internet, the last time I checked, Internet is/was a place used to get rid of silly man-made geo-restrictions and making things accessible to everyone! To deny a service cos I am in a different country is nothing but a form of racism and sheer stupidity.

You could complain to Netflix

weera2500

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#1476231 21-Jan-2016 15:48

tdgeek:

weera2500:

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

Have to disagree big time on your analogy. Why should it matter which country (race/eye colour/religion) I am from or have to access a service? If I am a traveller jetsetting to places, you restrict me from accessing your service simply 'cos I stopped over in a different country? To me, bypassing geoblocking is an excellent way of standing up to corporate greed. We pay our hard earned money to access your service but coming up with arguments like "oh now that you are out of US you are not allowed to watch this movie or that movie"...what a load of crap! If you don't want to stream your movie, then don't put it on the Internet, the last time I checked, Internet is/was a place used to get rid of silly man-made geo-restrictions and making things accessible to everyone! To deny a service cos I am in a different country is nothing but a form of racism and sheer stupidity.

You could complain to Netflix

I am sure enough people have complained to them already. But 'cos they don't listen (but very happy to take my money) I use services of geo-unblockers.

Back in the day, many people complained to the US govt for racism against Blacks. Took a while for them to listen, right?

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NonprayingMantis

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#1476244 21-Jan-2016 16:12

freitasm:
ockel:

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

The difference is all you mention there are illegal things, geo-unblocking is not (or not defined as such).

Pretty sure cheating in an exam isn't illegal,
Neither is lying on your cv. (It can be in some circumstances if you claim certain qualifications - like being a CA or lawyer, but it's not illegal to lie about other stuff.)

Using fake id is illegal I believe, but simply lying about your age in the hope you'll get into a bar isn't illegal afaik.

Basically, Using smartdns type services is essentially lying about who you are in order to gain access to a service you wouldn't otherwise be able to.
So it's like pretending to be over 65 to get a free bus pass.
Pretending to be out of work or sick to get benefits/ACC

In any case, the morality of something is not necessarily tied to its legality. Something can be perfectly legal, and totally immoral.

(And referring to my previous post, we can also say that it is possible for geoblocking to be immoral AND for the act of getting round geoblocking to ALSO be immoral.)

I think the comparison to human rights is absolutely absurd. It's basically saying that civil rights like the right to vote, equal treatment under law for races and religions, is the same sort of thing as having to wait a few weeks to watch game of thrones.
This is not even the same ballpark.

MikeB4

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#1476255 21-Jan-2016 16:28

NonprayingMantis:
freitasm:

ockel:

Kinda like using a fake ID to get into the pub or club?

Or cheating in an exam?

Or falsely claiming your credentials in a CV?

Or selling concert tickets that you dont have?

All the same thing on a scale of varying proportions.

The difference is all you mention there are illegal things, geo-unblocking is not (or not defined as such).

Pretty sure cheating in an exam isn't illegal,
Neither is lying on your cv. (It can be in some circumstances if you claim certain qualifications - like being a CA or lawyer, but it's not illegal to lie about other stuff.)

Using fake id is illegal I believe, but simply lying about your age in the hope you'll get into a bar isn't illegal afaik.

Basically, Using smartdns type services is essentially lying about who you are in order to gain access to a service you wouldn't otherwise be able to.
So it's like pretending to be over 65 to get a free bus pass.
Pretending to be out of work or sick to get benefits/ACC

I think the comparison to human rights is absolutely absurd. It's basically saying that civil rights like the right to vote, equal treatment under law for races and religions, is the same sort of thing as having to wait a few weeks to watch game of thrones.
This is not even the same ballpark.

Putting false detail on a CV could be at a stretch seen as fraud or using a document for pecuniary advantage

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MileHighKiwi

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#1476265 21-Jan-2016 16:43

The Roy Morgan numbers quoted earlier are pretty accurate. Netflix has approx. 160,000 subscribers in NZ. 6 months ago they had 35,000. Huge growth. Don't ask me to provide a source, its not Roy Morgan :)

ockel

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#1476271 21-Jan-2016 16:52

MileHighKiwi:

The Roy Morgan numbers quoted earlier are pretty accurate. Netflix has approx. 160,000 subscribers in NZ. 6 months ago they had 35,000. Huge growth. Don't ask me to provide a source, its not Roy Morgan :)

The Roy Morgan numbers were for Jun 2015 - about 3 months after launch. Estimated 164,000 homes. Six months prior to that would have been those accessing Netflix offshore.

Was published in October but only reported in the NZH in December. So the numbers are very stale. If Netflix still has 160,000 subs in NZ in late 2015 it'd be disappointing to think that it had reached market saturation already.

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