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Fred99
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  #2698726 27-Apr-2021 12:55
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tdgeek:

 

Buster:

 

I'm no HVAC engineer either but I would be extremely surprised is simple economics didn't sway with modifying existing buildings (hotels) to compartmentalise HVAC systems (Govt picking up the tab) as opposed to building purpose designed brand new facilities from the ground up.

 

 

Where do they go if hotels are ruled out? What large buildings don't use HVAC?

 

 

HVAC is just an acronym for Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning.

 

I don't know much about it either, but would seem to me that any system that pumped warm or cool air into a room from a central system would be risky as it's creating positive pressure in the rooms which could end up blown into hallways, under doors etc. A standard heat pump just recirculates air in a room, thus not expelling air which may contain the virus and the constant circulation probably helps keep particles suspended, some escapes every time the door is opened.  I'd think ideally you'd want to create just a little bit of negative pressure in rooms, but where this air is vented outdoors is a problem unless it's adequately filtered. Hospitals have negative ventilation rooms (not just full isolation rooms/wards), the patients aren't left to freeze or cook when the room is running in negative pressure mode.  So it's not as if there's a technical barrier, it's been a normal enough thing for a long time, but retrofitting to make something "bulletproof" from a hotel might be a huge problem. 

 

 




Buster
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  #2698743 27-Apr-2021 13:35
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I guess the 96 hour cohorting group management is the current idea so lets see how that goes.


Fred99
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  #2698744 27-Apr-2021 13:51
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I think we should have learned from this pandemic, and planned to set up dedicated border quarantine facilities ready for the next one.  It's something essential IMO for the unusual situation we're in as an island nation, to make the most of any "natural advantage" we may have without fully isolating ourselves.

 

If C-19 had been just a bit worse (more lethal) we'd have had no sensible choice but to close our borders completely to citizens, limiting arrivals to only crew for aircraft/ships.  Even as it is, I'd have been happier if we'd been more hard-nosed about limiting overseas travel arrivals. 




tdgeek
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  #2698745 27-Apr-2021 14:05
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I agree. Buildings wise, I imagine we will identify a range of buildings that are or can be ventilation happy, they will be used by whoever / whatever, but they will kick into pandemic usage when needed.

 

Returnees, I 100% accept that we let our own back. But how long does it take??? I assumed there would be evacuations from ex-pats, then it will dry up, as the remaining ex pats chose to stay put. But it seems continual. If the migration home was done, the border could be more or less sealed off. I don't understand that a year+ later we still have Kiwis escaping Covid


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  #2698753 27-Apr-2021 14:17
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So now we've had somebody who flew from Perth -> Sydney -> Auckland and then traveled to Northland (media haven't said now) during the WA lockdown.

 

Presumably this person must lied on their declaration to enter the country (either that or somebody at our border needs to be fired for letting somebody in from a designed hotspot), so I hope they're prosecuted to set an example.


msukiwi
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  #2698754 27-Apr-2021 14:22
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sbiddle:...so I hope they're prosecuted to set an example.

 

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wellygary
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  #2698757 27-Apr-2021 14:29
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sbiddle:

 

So now we've had somebody who flew from Perth -> Sydney -> Auckland and then traveled to Northland (media haven't said now) during the WA lockdown.

 

Presumably this person must lied on their declaration to enter the country (either that or somebody at our border needs to be fired for letting somebody in from a designed hotspot), so I hope they're prosecuted to set an example.

 

 

The Perth-Sydney flight was domestic, so they should have also been required to show a completed  declaration when they arrived/left the terminal at SYD Domestic ???


Handle9
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  #2698766 27-Apr-2021 14:43
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Fred99:

HVAC is just an acronym for Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning.


I don't know much about it either, but would seem to me that any system that pumped warm or cool air into a room from a central system would be risky as it's creating positive pressure in the rooms which could end up blown into hallways, under doors etc. A standard heat pump just recirculates air in a room, thus not expelling air which may contain the virus and the constant circulation probably helps keep particles suspended, some escapes every time the door is opened.  I'd think ideally you'd want to create just a little bit of negative pressure in rooms, but where this air is vented outdoors is a problem unless it's adequately filtered. Hospitals have negative ventilation rooms (not just full isolation rooms/wards), the patients aren't left to freeze or cook when the room is running in negative pressure mode.  So it's not as if there's a technical barrier, it's been a normal enough thing for a long time, but retrofitting to make something "bulletproof" from a hotel might be a huge problem. 


 



I was an HVAC automation project manager and still work in the space.

There's "typically" no ducting from outside a hotel room. The common areas (corridors, stairwell) are fed tempered fresh air which positively pressurises them and promotes fresh air into the rooms, aided by negative pressure from the toilet extract system.

The heating and cooling within the room is generally full recirc. Typical configuration is an egg crate return grill with a linear diffuser blowing from the bathroom wall towards the window.

The reason for this design is that it's cheap and does make the room slightly negative. That stops smells coming back into common areas, which is a problem. You don't want someone who had a vindaloo last night to stink out a while floor. It also makes hotels a somewhat reasonable choice for MIQ.

The biggest problem with hotel HVAC systems is they are very poorly maintained. It's one of the first things that hotels cut back on.

Fred99
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  #2698767 27-Apr-2021 14:49
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wellygary:

 

sbiddle:

 

So now we've had somebody who flew from Perth -> Sydney -> Auckland and then traveled to Northland (media haven't said now) during the WA lockdown.

 

Presumably this person must lied on their declaration to enter the country (either that or somebody at our border needs to be fired for letting somebody in from a designed hotspot), so I hope they're prosecuted to set an example.

 

 

The Perth-Sydney flight was domestic, so they should have also been required to show a completed  declaration when they arrived/left the terminal at SYD Domestic ???

 

 

I think they were supposed to be screened when arriving in NSW, then quarantine "at home" for 3 days.

 

They almost certainly lied at screening at Sydney domestic, then lied again when entering NZ.

 

So yeah - if that's correct, they should be prosecuted.  It's not "legally exploiting a loophole" if they lied, so they deserve have the book thrown at them.

 

 


Fred99
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  #2698785 27-Apr-2021 15:29
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Handle9:

The reason for this design is that it's cheap and does make the room slightly negative. That stops smells coming back into common areas, which is a problem. You don't want someone who had a vindaloo last night to stink out a while floor. It also makes hotels a somewhat reasonable choice for MIQ.

The biggest problem with hotel HVAC systems is they are very poorly maintained. It's one of the first things that hotels cut back on.

 

I *think* the hospital rooms with negative ventilation have self-closing doors that seal, then they HEPA filter exhaust air.  I was looking after someone a couple of years back who was in one of those rooms in Dunedin hospital.  Fresh air was drawn from the roof, they had a heliport on the roof for rescue choppers, they must have had a manual override to shut the vents when the heliport was in use.  They must have goofed one day I was there, the ward full of very sick people filled up with choking jet fuel fumes.  Probably one of many reasons Dunedin is getting a new hospital.


Batman

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  #2698797 27-Apr-2021 15:44
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hong kong and singapore will open travel bubble

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56883766

 

 


 
 
 

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Handle9
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  #2698798 27-Apr-2021 15:44
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Iso rooms can be positively pressurised or negatively pressurised. It's common to put someone in an ISO room to protect them from the rest of the hospital. They do filter both supply and extract air. They are also typically high flow rate systems, you want to maximise air changes.

Most iso rooms have an ante room which serves as an airlock. You also monitor and display the pressure between the room and the corridor. They are very expensive as they have dedicated ducting and are finished to a higher standard than the wards.

There are very few of these rooms in a hospital, a large hospital would have 10 rooms. Normal infections don't go to iso rooms, it's typically for something a bit nastier.

An ISO room is overkill for something like COVID. It's not that infectious and it seems to be relatively well proven that it doesn't spread well outside. Providing the common extract duct is dispersing at height UV and dilution should take care of most of it.

Batman

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  #2698801 27-Apr-2021 15:47
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why don't just mount a UV lamp at ducts vents and everywhere in between?


Handle9
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  #2698803 27-Apr-2021 15:51
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Batman:

 

why don't just mount a UV lamp at ducts vents and everywhere in between?

 

 

 

It's expensive and dangerous. UV lamps are nasty things.


Jase2985
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  #2698828 27-Apr-2021 16:09
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Buster:

 

I guess the 96 hour cohorting group management is the current idea so lets see how that goes.

 

 

Yea i believe it should work a bit better than how it currently is where you could have someone who is day 13 using a lift that was used by someone on day 0 or 1 for instance.

 

@Scott3

 

96 hour cohorting, is how it was described earlier, fill the hotel over 96 hours, then close it till the first lot of guests get to 14 days (2x negative covid tests by then) then start discharging over 96 hours, 1 day to clean then start the process again.

 

At present the Grand Millennium is the biggest hotel with approximately 452 rooms, some will be used by staff, nurses etc and some will be OOA. but at an average of about 1.25 guests per room that's only about 565 people to fill the hotel. 4 flights of 100-120 people and your done.

 

smaller hotels of 100-150 rooms might take some of the smaller flights over that period.


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