2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2743351 12-Jul-2021 19:15

Technofreak:

The government needs to move on saliva testing. Despite MOH wanting to move down this track the government is dragging their heels.

I've had to have a couple of tests done for work. I pity those that are having tests done every week or so. I don't blame them for wanting the saliva test.

When there are kids in Britan drinking drinks to get a positive result and have time at home.. I don't blame them for not thinking it's as bullet proof as first thought.

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#2743355 12-Jul-2021 19:23

Regarding extended compulsory vaccination to other workers that come into contact with listed groups:

Oblivian:

Yeah that's my worry too. It will come also with a testing plan. Hopefully someone sees sense and breaks it down. I don't wanna swab every month if I've not gone there for a while but a peer has instead. 2 weeks post any visits after an extended period? Sure. Happy to.

Is there any evidence that it will come with a testing plan?

Household contacts of border workers were offered vaccines eairly, with no need for regular testing.

At this point vaccinations are fairly abundant and cheap, where the PCR test's have a retail cost of about $150 (assume the government gets a bit of a bulk discount) so are quite expensive.

Makes sense for the vaccination net to extend beyond the testing net given it is cheap and easy.

Still is going to suck for some companies. i.e. the MIQ rubbish pickup company if employees of driver #12 need to be vaccinated but receptionist #2 says no thanks. Do they fire they receptionist? or create a boundary though the building so they never contact each other?

Don't think the likes of rubbish collection companies ever thought they would need to mandate entire sites be vaccinated...

Oblivian

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#2743405 12-Jul-2021 19:24

Guess we'll find out on Wed when it kicks in and the order is put up. Can't seem to find the full order amendment just yet

/edit

This tends to indicate it involves removal of 'thing's from MiQs more than airside areas. Guess that may change.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0065/latest/whole.html#LMS481043

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#2743420 12-Jul-2021 20:10

Fred99:

Live: Jacinda Ardern, Chris Hipkins brief media after Cabinet meeting 3:33 pm today

Port and airport workers will soon be required to be vaccinated, as the government expands its border workforce rule.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins announced the move after a Cabinet meeting this afternoon.

Currently, the mandatory vaccination rule applies to workers at managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) facilities, airside government officials and port workers.

They said the expanded order would also apply to:

Higher-risk and airside workers at airports

Port workers

Accommodation providers for isolating air crews

Workers handling items removed from ships, aircraft or MIQ

Companies routinely providing services to aircraft, ships or MIQ

Employees in contact with any of the above

Government-employed workers newly covered by the order will have until 26 August, and private employees until 30 September, to get their first dose.

Oh dear. Why didn't this happen months ago!

Because just about everything we do is reactive (normally after being told to do things for months by experts) rather than taking proactive measures that are being discussed with experts before they're needed.

Just look at the new mask changes for L2 and above that were also revealed today. It's been clear for a couple of months now that our current L2 rules would not be able to contain a Delta breakout, and yet we took no steps to actually change the rules until well after the Wellington scare. Why did it take so long to even discuss indoor mask wear when we've known the risks of not doing this?

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#2743422 12-Jul-2021 20:16

Technofreak:

xlinknz:

I"m not sure if this is a few pages back in the thread but why is the govt now paying for MIQ for those who require to return from NSW when they were previously told to travel at your own risk?

How is that fare to those waiting for MIQ slots outside of Australia?

Yep, saw that. I don't know why the government (actually read that as us tax payers) are paying. It is unfair on the taxpayers and gives the wrong message, - the government is a soft touch.

It doesn't affect the number of MIQ spaces therefore doesn't waiting times for slots but is unfair when some are paying and some aren't.

But there had never been any plans to charge for MIQ from Australia - despite the PM and MBIE publicly stating they could need to pay. The reality is this scenario and breakout was simply not envisaged happening when the bubble was announced - yes the plans were in place, but it was expected that a large scale breakout like NSW are experiencing (and what VIC nearly had) was unlikely.

The PM made it very clear today why they are not paying - that those people who left the country did so with an expectation that they would be able to return freely.

Whether the decision is right or wrong clearly depends which side of the fence you sit on, but it has to be put into context that the vast majority of people who go through our MIQ do not pay.

Technofreak

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#2743424 12-Jul-2021 20:20

Oblivian:
Technofreak:

The government needs to move on saliva testing. Despite MOH wanting to move down this track the government is dragging their heels.

I've had to have a couple of tests done for work. I pity those that are having tests done every week or so. I don't blame them for wanting the saliva test.

When there are kids in Britan drinking drinks to get a positive result and have time at home.. I don't blame them for not thinking it's as bullet proof as first thought.

No one said it was bullet proof. From what I've read providing it's administered properly the Saliva test is pretty good. If you get a positive you follow up with the nasal swab.

I was only suggesting it for use with the likes of border and health workers. As a group they're less likely to try and cheat the system as their job depends on them doing the right thing.

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#2743446 12-Jul-2021 21:53

Technofreak: Despite MOH wanting to move down this track the government is dragging their heels.

Saying border staff didn't want it was a blatant lie. Every one I know who works at the border wants it over the nasal swab.

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#2743457 12-Jul-2021 22:20

sbiddle:

But there had never been any plans to charge for MIQ from Australia - despite the PM and MBIE publicly stating they could need to pay. The reality is this scenario and breakout was simply not envisaged happening when the bubble was announced - yes the plans were in place, but it was expected that a large scale breakout like NSW are experiencing (and what VIC nearly had) was unlikely.

The PM made it very clear today why they are not paying - that those people who left the country did so with an expectation that they would be able to return freely.

Whether the decision is right or wrong clearly depends which side of the fence you sit on, but it has to be put into context that the vast majority of people who go through our MIQ do not pay.

If I recall rightly one of the journalists asked if people might need to pay for MIQ to come back from aussie before when the bubble opened, and the answer was no, so the government is kinda stuck with that. Is at odds with the message of flyer beware though.

I don't really have an issue with it being free for as you say consistency with the rest of the MIQ system such as with people who were outside of NZ prior to the pandemic coming back into MIQ from other countries now. (That said I don't think any rooms should be free)

I think it is wrong to say the need for some people to MIQ on return from Aussie was unexpected. We had 500 rooms held in reserve. But quietly some of the reason may have been that those 500 rooms weren't suitable for isolating people from high risk countries anyway.

I think the bigger issues in my mind are:

the additional 500 rooms scrambled likely came out of the pool / contingency for other international arrivals (or by accepting increased risk by giving up on traunching). - seems unfair to those in other continues locked out of NZ with no rooms available to book for months.
rooms being allocated directly to airlines (this has caused a lot of issues in Aussie. Hopefully if there are just two airlines they would both play nice)
Message "Normally resident in NZ" doesn't seem to match with actual criteria - Seems any NZ citizen, resident or aussie that holidayed here in the last few months qualifies. If I lived in Sydney at the moment a couple of weeks of free food in a hotel before hitting the slopes in queenstown would be looking attractive.
Flights with MIQ rooms attached sold out in 15mins. For repatriation some sort of queue / lottery to get on the early flight would have been better than a game of fastest finger again.
Still seems to be people transiting through other states.

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#2743458 12-Jul-2021 22:25

Dratsab:

Saying border staff didn't want it was a blatant lie. Every one I know who works at the border wants it over the nasal swab.

It's not quite a lie, but it is not surprising that the uptake of additional testing on top of the regular PCR swab wasn't met with high uptake.

"This was ready to be rolled out on a voluntary basis to supplement - but not replace - the standard nasopharyngeal PCR swab."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-coronavirus-saliva-testing-provider-rako-science-slams-health-ministry/YNFWSIHSM5JZX24FQI6IGNOFWU/

I assume what border workers want is a net less intrusive testing progam. Perhaps spit tests every two days, and PCR tests changed from weekly to monthly...

Dratsab

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#2743464 12-Jul-2021 22:52

Additional testing has never been offered where I work, so it's not a matter of the uptake not being high - it's a matter of the option simply not being available. You are quite right in assuming a less intrusive testing program is what's wanted :-)

I'd be happy to do a spit test at the start of every shift given I'm in relatively close proximity to arriving international passengers towards the end of every shift, and at the beginning of some.

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#2743469 12-Jul-2021 23:22

Scott3:

sbiddle:

But there had never been any plans to charge for MIQ from Australia - despite the PM and MBIE publicly stating they could need to pay. The reality is this scenario and breakout was simply not envisaged happening when the bubble was announced - yes the plans were in place, but it was expected that a large scale breakout like NSW are experiencing (and what VIC nearly had) was unlikely.

The PM made it very clear today why they are not paying - that those people who left the country did so with an expectation that they would be able to return freely.

Whether the decision is right or wrong clearly depends which side of the fence you sit on, but it has to be put into context that the vast majority of people who go through our MIQ do not pay.

If I recall rightly one of the journalists asked if people might need to pay for MIQ to come back from aussie before when the bubble opened, and the answer was no, so the government is kinda stuck with that. Is at odds with the message of flyer beware though.

I don't really have an issue with it being free for as you say consistency with the rest of the MIQ system such as with people who were outside of NZ prior to the pandemic coming back into MIQ from other countries now. (That said I don't think any rooms should be free)

I think it is wrong to say the need for some people to MIQ on return from Aussie was unexpected. We had 500 rooms held in reserve. But quietly some of the reason may have been that those 500 rooms weren't suitable for isolating people from high risk countries anyway.

I think the bigger issues in my mind are:

the additional 500 rooms scrambled likely came out of the pool / contingency for other international arrivals (or by accepting increased risk by giving up on traunching). - seems unfair to those in other continues locked out of NZ with no rooms available to book for months.
rooms being allocated directly to airlines (this has caused a lot of issues in Aussie. Hopefully if there are just two airlines they would both play nice)
Message "Normally resident in NZ" doesn't seem to match with actual criteria - Seems any NZ citizen, resident or aussie that holidayed here in the last few months qualifies. If I lived in Sydney at the moment a couple of weeks of free food in a hotel before hitting the slopes in queenstown would be looking attractive.
Flights with MIQ rooms attached sold out in 15mins. For repatriation some sort of queue / lottery to get on the early flight would have been better than a game of fastest finger again.
Still seems to be people transiting through other states.

It's not really consistent with the rest of MIQ. No one who left NZ after paid MIQ was introduced is eligible for it to be free.

Using 2 weeks of annual leave for MIQ is profoundly unattractive. No one I know who has used MIQ is in any hurry to repeat the experience. It's not fun.

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#2743473 13-Jul-2021 00:04

Scott3:

sbiddle:

But there had never been any plans to charge for MIQ from Australia - despite the PM and MBIE publicly stating they could need to pay. The reality is this scenario and breakout was simply not envisaged happening when the bubble was announced - yes the plans were in place, but it was expected that a large scale breakout like NSW are experiencing (and what VIC nearly had) was unlikely.

The PM made it very clear today why they are not paying - that those people who left the country did so with an expectation that they would be able to return freely.

Whether the decision is right or wrong clearly depends which side of the fence you sit on, but it has to be put into context that the vast majority of people who go through our MIQ do not pay.

If I recall rightly one of the journalists asked if people might need to pay for MIQ to come back from aussie before when the bubble opened, and the answer was no, so the government is kinda stuck with that. Is at odds with the message of flyer beware though.

Who said no though? Maybe it was just an error in their reply. The PM has previously said that it was 'flyer beware' if the bubble closes, and this article says bubble traveller could pay thousands in MIQ fees. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/flyer-beware-returning-transtasman-bubble-travellers-could-pay-thousands-in-miq-fees/

Or maybe that only applied if NZ had the outbreak, and Austrlalia forced people into MIQ on their side?

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#2743477 13-Jul-2021 07:10

Scott3:

tdgeek:

I would just run a TV/media campaign. many wont be convinced, its up to them to review their stance as things overseas escalate. I certainly don't want my taxpayer dollars used to ask them to get vaccinated. Its on their head as long as adequate efforts have been made to educate them.

I think the current media campaign is fairly well done, Not a direct message to tell people to get vaccinated, just a mix of people and their situation, and how they want the vaccine to protect themselves / others / their way of life (i.e. markets staying open).

Once we get to a point where we have spare vaccine doses & vaccination capacity, I am quite happy for a decent amount of my taxpayer dollars to be spent to actively encouraging / convincing the hesitant to get vaccinated. I would expect it to deliverer extremely good value compared to the hospital care that 1%+ of those people could well need when we open back up to the world. Doesn't need to be super expensive. Perhaps funding vaccine experts to speak at locations with high rates of vaccine hesitancy. Perhaps funding free GP visits for the hesitant to discuss the pro's and cons of the vaccination with their doctor. Perhaps funding GP's to phone their vaccinate patients, to invite them verbally to a vaccination appointment (and have a quick discussion with them about it) where non-verbal communications have failed.

Remember that with vaccine's, people who haven't got around to it yet or didn't know (perhaps mixed up the flu jab and the covid-19 jab) are much bigger in number than anti-vaxers. Those who are hesitant (but with concerns that can be addressed / discussed) also massively outnumber true anti-vaxers (who are so far down the rabbit hole they arn't likely to change their views)

Agree, just no bribes to inidividuals

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#2743485 13-Jul-2021 07:34

Scott3:

sbiddle:

But there had never been any plans to charge for MIQ from Australia - despite the PM and MBIE publicly stating they could need to pay. The reality is this scenario and breakout was simply not envisaged happening when the bubble was announced - yes the plans were in place, but it was expected that a large scale breakout like NSW are experiencing (and what VIC nearly had) was unlikely.

The PM made it very clear today why they are not paying - that those people who left the country did so with an expectation that they would be able to return freely.

Whether the decision is right or wrong clearly depends which side of the fence you sit on, but it has to be put into context that the vast majority of people who go through our MIQ do not pay.

If I recall rightly one of the journalists asked if people might need to pay for MIQ to come back from aussie before when the bubble opened, and the answer was no, so the government is kinda stuck with that. Is at odds with the message of flyer beware though.

I certainly never read or heard that. Both the PM and MBIE made it very clear on multiple occasions in multiple media stories and interviews that people might have to pay.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/124765134/transtasman-bubble-travellers-could-pay-thousands-for-miq-in-event-of-australian-outbreak

The issue is that despite them saying this, behind the scenes it was never actually expected that anybody would ever pay. The odds of a full on breakout with what could now be 6-8 weeks of lockdown restrictions in NSW wasn't something that was seen as likely to occur.

The expected scenarios were what we'd seen in the first few months - temporary pauses and the chance of being stuck for a week or so. The expected use of MIQ was a localised breakout or ineligible passenger on a flight being identified after it had departed Australia which would have meant the entire flight would be put into MIQ on arrival into NZ, and this stay would be free since passengers certainly didn't expect to go into MIQ.

Bringing people back now means a lot of additional steps including having to run red flights which also has implications for Air NZ and their crewing. All the flights need to be with Dreamliners since they can't use Airbus crew now with red flights without a lot of extra steps.

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#2743489 13-Jul-2021 07:41

Scott3:

I think it is wrong to say the need for some people to MIQ on return from Aussie was unexpected. We had 500 rooms held in reserve. But quietly some of the reason may have been that those 500 rooms weren't suitable for isolating people from high risk countries anyway.

I think the bigger issues in my mind are:

Still seems to be people transiting through other states.

I'm still waiting for somebody to turn up on one of these flights from somewhere else in the world. It is bound to happen because it's such an amazing opportunity to bypass the whole lottery of the current MIQ system.

Providing you can get to Sydney (which will be the tricky bit) you are fully eligible to still take advantage of the 72hr transit that Australia still offers BUT the catch has been that your onward travel from Australia to New Zealand HAS to be on a red flight, and there have been none of them since the bubble started.

The govt warned yesterday that anybody trying backdoors would be fined $1000 and would have to pay their MIQ cost. To be completely honest if you're somebody from elsewhere in the world who was going to have to pay for MIQ anyway and there is zero availability for the next 6 months, paying a $1000 fine is peanuts if it enables you to get home within the next few weeks.

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