2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2779381 16-Sep-2021 14:38

freitasm:

Batman: https://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/126398267/covid19-teens-seemingly-targeted-in-antivax-campaign

"Covid-19: Teens seemingly targeted in anti-vax campaign "

Can we have some law change to get people in prison for misinformation and disinformation?

Opinion is one thing. Stupidity being acted upon is another.

Who decides what constitutes misinformation or disinformation that would rise to the level of prosecution?

Censorship by law needs to be a very high standard and not subject to the political will / party of the day.

Seems a pretty slippery slope to me

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#2779395 16-Sep-2021 15:05

sen8or:

Who decides what constitutes misinformation or disinformation that would rise to the level of prosecution?

Censorship by law needs to be a very high standard and not subject to the political will / party of the day.

Seems a pretty slippery slope to me

Censorship exists to prevent damage, which is its only justification. Those who spew Covid misinformation are either malicious or ignorant. In either case their behaviour creates a very real risk of serious illness, possible death, and the spreading of dangerous infection to others. They are disease-carrying worms and there is nothing slippery about that slope at all.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

freitasm

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#2779403 16-Sep-2021 15:21

sen8or:

freitasm:

Batman: https://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/126398267/covid19-teens-seemingly-targeted-in-antivax-campaign

"Covid-19: Teens seemingly targeted in anti-vax campaign "

Can we have some law change to get people in prison for misinformation and disinformation?

Opinion is one thing. Stupidity being acted upon is another.

Who decides what constitutes misinformation or disinformation that would rise to the level of prosecution?

Censorship by law needs to be a very high standard and not subject to the political will / party of the day.

Seems a pretty slippery slope to me

I am going to use an example from the US: shouting FIRE in a theatre is not protected by their first amendment.

"The original wording used in Holmes's opinion ("falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic") highlights that speech that is dangerous and false is not protected, as opposed to speech that is dangerous but also true."

There you go. The information these people are spreading is patently false and dangerous. It should not be protected.

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ezbee

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#2779407 16-Sep-2021 15:32

Well I presume there is something about staking out a school that's beyond the pale and indecent.
Otherwise Scientology, Hari Chrishna, Moonies, various Evangelical groups etc would be there every morning.

There is no slippery slope in this case as the information is obviously wrong, and represents a significant healthcare risk.
Accosting children at the entrance of a school is just wrong anyway, and should never be tolerated.

They are getting blitzed on social media anyway, so pointless to their destructive cause.

frankv

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#2779420 16-Sep-2021 16:10

ezbee:

They are getting blitzed on social media anyway, so pointless to their destructive cause.

Regretfully, I disagree. The anti-vaxxers I have encountered are religious in their belief and their need to proselytise. If some of their number are made to suffer, they are seen as "martyrs", and as a model for others to emulate.

However, I think we need to maintain a level head ourselves... death threats and baying for blood is also not an adult way to behave.

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#2779422 16-Sep-2021 16:11

wellygary:

I've just run some numbers and its now clear why they are starting up the Vax buses and boosting walk ups/drive throughs etc... they are gonna run out of booked people to vaccinate in the next week or so....

Looking at the last 10 odd days of the "Vaxxed+booked" figures shows that the growth of new bookings has really slowed up, and the the gap between 1st vaxxed and 1st vaxxed+booked has shrunk from over 500K on the 9th to about 300K now.

New bookings over the past 2 days are 15K and 12K respectively,.. so at 40K new vaxxations per day, that's around 10 days before all those booked in are vaccinated

You have to pull the daily vax+booked data from google's cache because very unhelpfully the MoH only publish a rolling total that they update each day :(

There is a chance that there is a data issue may be making this look a touch worse that it is. I.e. some of the people that did walk in, in the few massive vaccination days at the start of the walk in didn't cancel their appointments, so were previously double counted. When their appointment lapses they are single counted. (if the system has the ability to re-cancle it would also auto cancel people appointments when they did a walk in...)

There will also be some people that miss appointments for various reasons, so drop out of the count completly until they re-book.

But it is clear we are fast approaching the end of super keen, and mobile people to vacciante, and I expect that it will take massive effort to maintain the current dose rate (cira 63k today) the next few weeks. - May see a rush in 2nd doses 6 weeks after those massive 90k dose days at the start of this outbreak.

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#2779423 16-Sep-2021 16:17

freitasm:

sen8or:

Who decides what constitutes misinformation or disinformation that would rise to the level of prosecution?

Censorship by law needs to be a very high standard and not subject to the political will / party of the day.

Seems a pretty slippery slope to me

I am going to use an example from the US: shouting FIRE in a theatre is not protected by their first amendment.

"The original wording used in Holmes's opinion ("falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic") highlights that speech that is dangerous and false is not protected, as opposed to speech that is dangerous but also true."

There you go. The information these people are spreading is patently false and dangerous. It should not be protected.

It's not protected but it's not specifically prohibited speech.

Trying to implement this sort of ban would be almost entirely impractical.

frankv

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#2779431 16-Sep-2021 16:41

freitasm:

I am going to use an example from the US: shouting FIRE in a theatre is not protected by their first amendment.

"The original wording used in Holmes's opinion ("falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic") highlights that speech that is dangerous and false is not protected, as opposed to speech that is dangerous but also true."

There you go. The information these people are spreading is patently false and dangerous. It should not be protected.

Whilst the US Constitution isn't directly relevant here in NZ, I accept that it's a reasonable approximation. But you've ignored an important Holmes criterion: the speech must also be liable to cause an *immediate* danger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater However, the interpretation of imminent danger was pretty loose in Holmes's case... the issue was over a person handing out anti-war pamphlets during WW1, which was taken as causing immediate danger to the government's recruitment efforts and therefore not protected. Subsequently (Brandenburg), the SCOTUS found that inciting people to violence was protected, so long as it wasn't immediate violence.

Shouting "FIRE" or "Kill [someone] now!" are not protected, but shouting "This theatre will burn down tomorrow" or "On July 4th we'll attack Congress" would be protected.

Batman

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#2779447 16-Sep-2021 17:16

not easy.

kill free speech they say govt has agenda, confirms their suspicion, communist etc

allow free speech - alternate reality might grow

but i can guarantee you if you kill free speech people will spread on the above on social media which is much harder to police

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#2779448 16-Sep-2021 17:17

frankv:

ezbee:

They are getting blitzed on social media anyway, so pointless to their destructive cause.

Regretfully, I disagree. The anti-vaxxers I have encountered are religious in their belief and their need to proselytise. If some of their number are made to suffer, they are seen as "martyrs", and as a model for others to emulate.

However, I think we need to maintain a level head ourselves... death threats and baying for blood is also not an adult way to behave.

religion aside (not convinced), it's funny how they are suffering and those dying from covid are not

and i'm not joking. exact conversation with these people first hand

ezbee

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#2779452 16-Sep-2021 17:24

Taiwan have fought their way down to 1 case in their large delta outbreak.
Well they did get down to a couple of zero days a few weeks ago but...
An Aircargo Aircrew member broke their trust, since fired.
Then a person who had home isolation also had family break trust.
Latest is perhaps a more expected Airline cabin cleaner caught early as they are regularly tested.

Taiwan today down to one.
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4287746

This is in a very difficult environment with vaccination still on drip-feed and high population density in main population centers.
Oh their level 2 is harsher than ours, more like a level 3ish, or a bit more permissive.
But then they have more invasive contact tracing which really helps your confidence you can contain.

List of restrictions Nightclubs, here, bars, KTV clubs to remain closed through Sept. 20
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4281780

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Batman

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#2779455 16-Sep-2021 17:28

Go Taiwan!

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#2779462 16-Sep-2021 18:02

Three's news update was calling that dr Bloomfield has set a 90% target

But it's a catching play on the actual

He would like to see 90%
They've been pressing for a figure. That's not terribly good looking with the current ratio of muppets refusing out there?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/covid-19-health-chief-ashley-bloomfield-reveals-vaccine-rollout-target.html

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#2779466 16-Sep-2021 18:14

Oblivian: Three's news update was calling that dr Bloomfield has set a 90% target

But it's a catching play on the actual

He would like to see 90%
They've been pressing for a figure. That's not terribly good looking with the current ratio of muppets refusing out there?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/covid-19-health-chief-ashley-bloomfield-reveals-vaccine-rollout-target.html

It's not likely but high 80% range is reasonably attainable based on international experience.

Currently it's roughly 75% booked or vaccinated, the next 10% will probably be slower but doable. After that who knows? It depends on what the consequences (outside of health) are for not being vaccinated.

Allowing companies to require vaccination more easily would have a positive impact as would limiting access to some places like bars, night clubs, sports stadiums, concerts and churches. Those are highly political decisions.

Batman

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#2779468 16-Sep-2021 18:16

DS248:

Seems a general toughening up on vaccination by various governments is having the desired effect; eg.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/15/europe/france-us-vaccine-mandates-compared-cmd-intl/index.html

yeah that could be it. they want freedom so they don't want vaccine.

so if you can't have freedom, then you will have the vaccine!

does make sense.

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