2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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Mad Scientist
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#2788650 3-Oct-2021 16:26

mattwnz:
Buster:

Yes. Border workers (Auckland border) should be mandatory vaccinated.

Anyone crossing the border should be vaccinated IMO, including truck drivers etc. Also students returning to uni, which is a crazy one. Each of these things are a risk of the virus leaking, student probably more of a risk.

I think it is clear that some of the decisions made during this outbreak have not been good, especially as experts have said that elimination is still the best response to an outbreak. The level 3 drop seemed to be the turning point signal, but some of the media have also been putting a lot of doubt in peoples minds that elimination was impossible IMO. I didn't hear the PM refer to elimination this time. The PM was saying that the reason Auckland is in level 3 and a hard border in place was to give the rest of NZ time to get vaccinated, and they were making the sacrifice to allow this to happen.

Not only no mention of elimination but news are saying level 4 is not considered and a roadmap will be presented soon.

Handle9

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#2788651 3-Oct-2021 16:26

GV27:

Handle9:

What would you have done to stop yesterdays protest? You either let it happen or there is likely a riot.

We don't have air force strike capability anymore, do we?

Do flour bombs count?

GV27

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#2788653 3-Oct-2021 16:36

Handle9:

Do flour bombs count?

Now there's a nation-shaping idea. Not sure how well it would go down in a post-9/11 era, or how the CAA would feel about it.

But to cut the same cloth in a different way: I know my car can get above the mandatory abandonment threshold for a police pursuit, say, along the Auckland border.

I wouldn't feel comfortable outrunning say, Skyhawks. I'm sure the police helicopter would probably be just as effective but it's not as dramatic so I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist for the porpoises of this exercise.

mattwnz

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#2788654 3-Oct-2021 16:36

Handle9:

mattwnz:

But IMO it is the flouting of the rules and lack of reporting and enforcement that are the problem, and what happened yesterday where a large rally was allowed to take place.

What would you have done to stop yesterdays protest? You either let it happen or there is likely a riot.

Apparently it was toned down from what it was going to be, but there could be others. Maybe police checkpoints on all the incoming roads to the rally, to check that people travelling have a good reason to be out and about. Level 3 is still 'stay at home', unless out for permitted reasons, such as people are working or picking up essentials, or exercising.

https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/alert-level-3/

At Alert Level 3, travel is restricted and only allowed for permitted movement in your local area, for example going to work or school if you need to, shopping, visiting people in your bubble, getting exercise or travelling to a gathering that is allowed.

Fred99

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#2788661 3-Oct-2021 16:52

From ABC Australia

A senior intensive care nurse has described Victorian patients "begging" to be vaccinated before being put on life support.

Michelle Spence, the ICU nurse unit manager at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, was visibly emotional as she detailed otherwise fit and healthy people deteriorating after contracting COVID-19.

"One of the saddest things I've seen over the last few weeks is people wanting the vaccination just before we put them on a life support machine," she said.

"That is the absolute truth. I've seen it myself. They're begging for the vaccination.

"They're very young. And once we get to that, we're about to put them on life support, it is really too late."

alexx

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#2788669 3-Oct-2021 17:05

Handle9:

mattwnz:

But IMO it is the flouting of the rules and lack of reporting and enforcement that are the problem, and what happened yesterday where a large rally was allowed to take place.

What would you have done to stop yesterdays protest? You either let it happen or there is likely a riot.

I'm not sure if he cares about being locked up - he can paint himself as a martyr and it's important to understand that while Tamaki gets the press coverage, Peter Mortlock's "City Impact" which is a larger church is also spreading covid & vaccine disinformation.

This is a lot of info here:
https://twitter.com/davidfarrier/status/1444122714210377730

City Impact Church and Destiny Church, the religious groups behind the superspreader protest event yesterday that the police just let happen, have received a combined total, in excess of $1,000,000 from the Government COVID relief fund.

So the best response is to remove the churches wage subsidy and tax free status.

#include <standard.disclaimer>

Scott3

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#2788671 3-Oct-2021 17:07

tdgeek:

Level 4 was ticking down nicely, so we ended up with decreasing cases and these are mainly stupid households. How can you stop them? Stop every car on the road to check them? Patrol the streets?

Similar story to Singapore many months ago. Their containment measures were working well until the virus found it's way into the workers dormitories.

Ultimately any strategy needs to account for the weakest probable link. In our level 4 it appeared to be:

Intermingling of extended family households
Temporary / Transient housing & boarding houses
Organised crime groups.
Some essential workplaces (but to a lesser extent than the above).

Simply saying level 4 was fine but for a some rule breaking ignores that any containment measures need to be sufficient to achieve their purposes with the level of rule breaking that would be expected at the level of enforcement applied. I think the level 4 rules needed to be more optimized for ease of enforcement. For example allowing the use of a vehicle to go to a place of recreation, along with allowing distribution centers for "essential" goods like air fryers meant that the volume of car's on the road was high enough that stopping a decent chunk of vehicles wasn't viable. And that the police were taking an educational approach meant everybody get's one chance to get caught before there are any consequences.

The bottom line was that level 4 was failing to get on top of the outbreak in a timely way.

Sideface:

Radio NZ - Air NZ to introduce 'no jab, no fly' policy for global flights

Why wait until February? 🙁

A lot of preventable Covid spread could occur in the next 4 months, even assuming that the number of international flights will be unusually low.

I would guess a few reasons:

They are insisting on full covid-19 vaccination (2 doses for pfizer). Given the recommended spacing is 6 week's notice decent notice needs to be provided.
Means relatively few bookings from those with a (non medical) objection to getting vaccinated will be in the system, and Air NZ could likely just refund them to avoid drama in media etc.
NZ doesn't yet have it's proof of vaccine app live - sure travelers can get MOH to send them a letter, but without a quick system, customer experience is likely to suffer. Fully vaccinated people will turn up to the airport having forgotten their proof, or using the vaccine card (unlikely to be accepted as proof), and will get very upset if unable to board the flight.
They want to use IATA Travel pass, I don't think any airline has moved beyond trialing this. I imagine Air NZ don't want to go first.
There are some thorny questions that will need answered. Are they going to accept documents from high fraud locations? Are they going to accept the weaker WHO approved vaccines (Sinovac, single dose J+J)? are they going to accept the likes of Sputnik 4 & Soberana 2 which is regarded as pretty good but are not WHO approved.

Ultimately I would expect that Air NZ want to be seen as one of the first NZ companies to announce such measured, but minimise the pain of being the actual first mover.

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gzt

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#2788674 3-Oct-2021 17:12

Reanalyse: And in the Herald is stated "Tamaki thanked the police for working with him to make it a "peaceful but powerful day"."

Police convinced Tamaki and others to wear masks and things like that to minimise risk. Imo right decision. Have a look at the pointless chaos of anti events in other countries. No need to put officers at risk for that.

GV27

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#2788685 3-Oct-2021 17:39

gzt:

No need to put officers at risk for that.

Just give them longer nightsticks.

Rikkitic

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#2788690 3-Oct-2021 17:53

GV27:

gzt:

No need to put officers at risk for that.

Just give them longer nightsticks.

Cattle prods also work.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

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#2788692 3-Oct-2021 17:57

heavenlywild: Bang on. I'd vote for that.

Personal responsibility.

Sounds good. 90% population vaccination is tomorrow? Oy maybe Wednesday?

tdgeek

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#2788694 3-Oct-2021 18:00

heavenlywild: Well well... the PR use of "under control" over the past few weeks at the 1pm presser has shown up.

Bloomfield looks awful today - I feel for him because as Ardern puts it the other week "ultimately it is your decision".

Make jabs mandatory to go anywhere unless one has a medical reason not to get it.

Well, well, whose decision?

tdgeek

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#2788696 3-Oct-2021 18:04

alexx:

heavenlywild:

Finally some common ground :)

Unfortunately it takes an outbreak to motivate people to get jabbed. No doubt the Waikato jabs will go through the roof this coming week.

I remember someone posted some regional vaccination rates. Many areas outside of Auckland seemed to slow down their vaccination rate once they were back in level 2.

Yep, when you have a serious issue and everyone takes it seriously, then Its just an Auckland problem, then its not and you have an outbreak elsewhere, then there is a vaccination push? Humans are so stupid.

Ive lost faith in the NZ human response.

tdgeek

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#2788697 3-Oct-2021 18:08

mattwnz:

Anyone crossing the border should be vaccinated IMO, including truck drivers etc. Also students returning to uni, which is a crazy one. Each of these things are a risk of the virus leaking, student probably more of a risk.

I think it is clear that some of the decisions made during this outbreak have not been good, especially as experts have said that elimination is still the best response to an outbreak. The level 3 drop seemed to be the turning point signal, but some of the media have also been putting a lot of doubt in peoples minds that elimination was impossible IMO. I didn't hear the PM refer to elimination this time. The PM was saying that the reason Auckland is in level 3 and a hard border in place was to give the rest of NZ time to get vaccinated, and they were making the sacrifice to allow this to happen.

Decisions by who? AFAIK the decisions by a select few have impacted the team of 1.7M, and the now team of the North Island, and before long all of us. Its about time blame was put where it belongs.

tdgeek

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#2788700 3-Oct-2021 18:11

GV27:

So pretty clear we are not going to L2 tomorrow, and possibly not for the next two weeks.

Strong sign-posting that a vaccination target will be key to Auckland dropping alert levels.

Yep, it has failed. The team of 1.7M have not failed but you lot have been let down, "bigly" Due to that, forget about anything just vaccinate as a small but elect few have brought "we need to live with it" forward.

Throw all the plans in the bin

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