2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2796006 15-Oct-2021 18:02

GV27:
Technofreak:

There's already precedent with the recent court ruling where there was a challenge to the jab or job policy that was lost.

There was a huge amount of work required to prove it posed an operational risk to have someone in that particular role unvaccinated.

The question is how does a 10 - 20 staff team prove that? I have a young infant, if someone in my team is knowingly unvaccinated, that would arguably pose an unacceptable risk with Delta, which spreads in indoor environments like offices quite easily.

These are the bits that aren't clear as a result of the latest court action and the bits that private employers urgently need a legislative safety net on.

Saying 'they'll probably get around to making this OK retroactively' won't hold much water at the ERA.

You are talking about different things. The vaccination mandates are very straightforward. The process for “normal” businesses is quite different.

tdgeek

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#2796010 15-Oct-2021 18:13

ajobbins:

tdgeek:

VIC moving out or down lockdowns next week due to vaccination status. I guess they feel those cases are acceptable.

At over 260 days of lockdown during the pandemic, the compliance here is already very low, and waning every day. The high case numbers will in part be because of this - if our current restrictions were actually followed by everyone the numbers would likely be a fraction.

Another key element is that for 18 months now everyone has been told that vaccines are our path out. If they didn't ease restrictions at high vaccination numbers there would very likely be significant public backlash, and if that was known in advance many people would not bother getting one.

The next few weeks will be interesting for sure as both VIC and NSW open up. I'm sure the public health teams and govt in NZ will be watching very closely to see what happens here and using that to inform some of their next steps.

Yep, nice points. It easy to say lets all do this and it will be fine (which it would), but there are many factors, including fatigue. Delta is a problem, compounded by lower compliance in NZ (Auckland actually but id assume its the same everywhere here). So its Army level 6 or its what we have now, given that enough will not comply no matter what the Alert Level is. Circuit Breaker is a great idea, but many here are over lockdowns, yet now they want circuit breaker Level 4? Wont work as Alert levels rely on compliance, which NZ doesn't have (enough)

IMHO its about box on. Level 3 areas have some freedom, L4 wont make much difference, if any, so box on, stay safe and get vaccinated.

Cases aren't blowing out yet. Maybe tomorrow, its 29. maybe its 89. Its not 100 this week and 200 next, and 350 the week after, so boss on get vaccinated.

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#2796012 15-Oct-2021 18:15

Batman:
wellygary:

Well,

NSW have thrown caution to the Wind, and will scrap all quarantine for travellers, (international and presumably inter-state) from 1 November...

The only requirements are a neg pre-dep test and fully vaxxed....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-15/nsw-to-scrap-quarantine-for-overseas-arrivals/100541348

Well, before you know it, what big brother does little sister will follow... Time will prove me right or wrong I guess!

With insight like that you need to be advising the MoH who can then advise the Govt... /S

GV27

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#2796019 15-Oct-2021 18:38

Handle9:

You are talking about different things. The vaccination mandates are very straightforward. The process for “normal” businesses is quite different.

That's.... my point.

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#2796025 15-Oct-2021 19:15

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/health-safety/nsw-home-and-hotel-quarantine-to-end-for-overseas-travel/news-story/5a7ee20469c2681bcc61207921b8c0b3

Prime Minister Scott Morrison shuts down NSW Premier’s ‘open for business’ border announcement

“We are not opening up to everyone coming back to Australia at the moment,” Mr Morrison said. “I want to be clear about that."

Handle9

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#2796044 15-Oct-2021 20:13

tdgeek:
Cases aren't blowing out yet. Maybe tomorrow, its 29. maybe its 89. Its not 100 this week and 200 next, and 350 the week after, so boss on get vaccinated.

It’s exactly what the cases are doing. The 7 day average continues to double every ~14 days.

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ezbee

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#2796047 15-Oct-2021 20:57

As story we know well.

Hobart dealing with the uncooperative
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-15/hobart-three-day-lockdown-after-covid-hotel-breach/100542270
""
In announcing the lockdown, Mr Gutwein said the 31-year-old man, who had the Delta strain of coronavirus and spent about 18 hours in the community, "is not being cooperative" and had not disclosed his whereabouts after he escaped from hotel quarantine.
""

Technofreak

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#2796053 15-Oct-2021 22:00

GV27:

Technofreak:

There's already precedent with the recent court ruling where there was a challenge to the jab or job policy that was lost.

There was a huge amount of work required to prove it posed an operational risk to have someone in that particular role unvaccinated.

The question is how does a 10 - 20 staff team prove that? I have a young infant, if someone in my team is knowingly unvaccinated, that would arguably pose an unacceptable risk with Delta, which spreads in indoor environments like offices quite easily.

These are the bits that aren't clear as a result of the latest court action and the bits that private employers urgently need a legislative safety net on.

Saying 'they'll probably get around to making this OK retroactively' won't hold much water at the ERA.

There is two parts to the court case I used as an example. First is the government order which is pretty water tight. No jab, no border work. End of story. In the case of the AvSec worker there was the argument about being reassigned to another role. Avsecv were able to show that wasn't practical as there were unusual situations where "non border" workers may need to be called upon at short notice to fulfil a border role. Therefore reassignment wasn't an option.

I used this case as an example as to why, for employees covered by a government order, it will be pushing brown stuff up hill with a rack if they intend to challenge things in court. The advice given by a QC to another body of workers covered by the government order basically said the same thing.

For anyone not covered by a government order then that's another kettle of fish.

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Batman

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#2796076 16-Oct-2021 07:13

Alert levels be gone, lockdowns be history

Red to be new 2.5
Yellow the new level 2
Green the new level 1

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-delta-outbreak-scathing-feedback-from-experts-on-jacinda-arderns-traffic-light-system-to-replace-alert-levels/AXYMSZEY7LOBZ424AW37XPZZRY/

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#2796098 16-Oct-2021 08:00

tdgeek:
Batman:

i think you mean exposed (vs get sick) now. i think that's what australia is doing. freshly vaccinate and open up and let it do its thing at peak population immunity. kind of a smart and sneaky experiment where they have no other option.

what the result is - time will tell!

Deaths. Daily.

Looks like we're following suit if the new traffic light system wipes out level 3 and 4 as the herald suggests

Fred99

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#2796099 16-Oct-2021 08:01

Jeesh - that's an appalling headline (and article) from the NZ Herald. Like NZ's version of Fox News.

Disgusting gutter journalism.

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Buster

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#2796108 16-Oct-2021 08:10

Really it's a no brainer. Traffic light system will be more intuitive. Simple as that.

There can still be a Circuit Breaker level above Red.

Eva888

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#2796114 16-Oct-2021 08:13

Can’t see what the fuss is about using traffic lights instead of numbers. Now that lockdowns are no more it’s easy for people to understand. Red is danger, Yellow is caution and Green is go. Makes more sense than numbers especially for newcomers. They can still attach rulings to each colour and code black could be the new 4 if required.

tdgeek

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#2796119 16-Oct-2021 08:17

Buster:

Really it's a no brainer. Traffic light system will be more intuitive. Simple as that.

There can still be a Circuit Breaker level above Red.

Maybe I got it wrong, I thought vaccines are the way forward. Vaccinated population, and vaccine ID's to keep us all safer. Names aside, these draft ideas are just the alert levels that include vaccine ID entry and some mandating of vaccines. People complain that alert levels are complex and they change. Covid changes, as does vaccines, Delta, compliance. The tools need to change to reflect these.

MikeB4

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#2796120 16-Oct-2021 08:28

tdgeek:

Maybe I got it wrong, I thought vaccines are the way forward. Vaccinated population, and vaccine ID's to keep us all safer. Names aside, these draft ideas are just the alert levels that include vaccine ID entry and some mandating of vaccines. People complain that alert levels are complex and they change. Covid changes, as does vaccines, Delta, compliance. The tools need to change to reflect these.

Vaccines are just one tool in the box.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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