2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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195 posts

Master Geek

#2809877 9-Nov-2021 14:13

From today's hospitalisation figures.

fully vaccinated >14 days (8 cases /10%)

I really feel for the elderly & immunocompromised that are probably being super careful themselves.

Kookoo

787 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

#2809878 9-Nov-2021 14:14

[political rant]

At some stage western democracies will need to realise the society needs to have an instinct of self-preservation, and that instinct should be stronger than any learned behaviour or adopted morals, just like it is in an individual.

"Free speech" is a great principle, but when taken to extremes it is endangering the society - so put limits on it. Make Facebook responsible for the content published there by individual users. Will it leave New Zealand as a response? Great, good riddance.

Ban Telegram. Ban 8chan. Sure, some of these people will figure out a way around the ban, but let's be honest - most of them are as technologically illiterate as they are on the topics of vaccines, rights, or anything else for that matter. 90% out of the loop - you've already addressed the bulk of the problem. Who's going to complain, David Seymour? I doubt he's going to want to antagonise a significant chunk of his base by siding with this crowd.

[/political rant]

Hello, Ground!

rugrat

3107 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2809907 9-Nov-2021 14:57

MileHighKiwi:

Call in the army?? Some geekzoners on this thread should move to China or some other totalitarian regime where citizens have no rights, such as the right to protest or the right to refuse medical treatment.

No thanks, Prefer laws in NZ.

With a pandemic things are not as straight forward as this is our right, end of story.

The decisions others make are effecting lives of others. If there is a mass protest with a spreading contagion people at that protest will spread it outside the protest group. Many deaths will be caused by it.

At the moment everyone has to lock down at higher alert levels, the vaccine mandates mean that it is only the unvaccinated that will have to abide by strict lock down rules, if this is seen as coercion to get vaccinated, what do you suggest so that hospitals don’t get overwhelmed instead?

I also note the Wellington protesters are threatening the rights of other law abiding citizens to try to make the elected government make the laws they want.

The Army were called in to help with the Christchurch earthquakes, where I believe they stopped people looting etc, normally seen as a Police job.

If the Police have the resources to maintain law and order (as I’m sure most NZers would want Law and Order maintained) then Army won’t be needed.

quickymart

13932 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

#2809908 9-Nov-2021 14:58

Another protest. And for what? Why do these idiots do this? If they all caught coronavirus maybe suddenly they would get over themselves and realise this is not helping their, uh, "cause" in any way, shape or form. Also, they may say they represent the "silent majority". I'm a fairly quiet person, and they most certainly don't speak for me.

ezbee

2405 posts

Uber Geek

#2809915 9-Nov-2021 15:14

King country school with staff playing chicken over vaccine deadline.
Covid delta has potential to be very destructive in rural communities.

Rural areas a long way from Medical, Testing, Hospital and Ambulance services.
Outcomes may not be so good as you can't get rapid treatment.

We have already seen one case at least in city, self discharged.
Ambulance despite being in city area near Hospitals was just too late.

Families are connected by the school as a spreading point, often social focus in rural communities.

Children may have mostly small effects directly unless they are one of unlucky.
Its not zero, long covid health, learning effects are not unknown, for how long we don't know yet.
Under 12s are appearing in Auckland outbreak at double their proportion of population.

Growing up without a parent or grandparent, or with one significantly impacts on children too.
Covid orphans are unfortunately a thing.

Child poverty that may result in family main income earner having long covid.

If you rely on gangs to pick and process your produce an outbreak may cripple your harvest.
Certain country has issued warnings and limited imports from places with covid in processing.

cshwone

1070 posts

Uber Geek

#2809916 9-Nov-2021 15:16

It may be a co-incidence (which I doubt) but I have just received an alert from Metlink to say that "Due to damage - all toilets at Wellington Station are currently out of action"

totally senseless.

sen8or

1789 posts

Uber Geek

#2809917 9-Nov-2021 15:20

Some interesting developments within our workspace, we contract to various educational and aged care facilities in a professional capacity, we are now receiving notices through about the mandates and that only vaccinated staff can enter their premises under normal conditions.

This raises a few points -

Our staff's "private" health information is no longer private. Not only by us sending a staff member to a site are we basically declaring their vaccination status to an outside party, some institutions have gone as far as requiring proof of vaccine for that person we send (via Govt confirmation such as the covid vaccination status on my health etc).

External parties are essentially mandating our internal policies in that unvaccinated staff may very well be out of a job through obsolescence, even if it is safe for them to carry out their work and/or they can utilise PPE to further protect against the risk of catching or passing on COVID, by preventing these people from entering sites they are unemployable (our business is not one that is directly mandated and even a "covid risk assessment" indicates that our risks are low - moderate due to the nature of our work).

So whilst it may only be educational, healthcare or border workers that have vaccines mandated, the net is cast much wider.

For schools, will this mandate extend to parents attending a school function (parent teacher interviews, assemblies etc?)

For aged care, can unvaccinated people visit their parents / grand parents?

That the unvaccinated can't go to bars / restaurants etc really seems like the tip of the iceberg. I can really see this turning into quite a shit fight in the not too distant future and I suspect legal challenges will be plentiful.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

mudguard

2114 posts

Uber Geek

#2809925 9-Nov-2021 15:43

sen8or:

That the unvaccinated can't go to bars / restaurants etc really seems like the tip of the iceberg. I can really see this turning into quite a shit fight in the not too distant future and I suspect legal challenges will be plentiful.

But this surely comes under fairly recent legislation that company directors are personally liable for their employees? I don't recall the specifics but I report to Australia in my current role. I drive 30,000kms for year so we've had a lot of driver training the past three years to make sure we are as well equipped as we can to avoid accidents whilst driving for work.

I guess the vaccine will come under a similar umbrella, if you allow a worker to remain unvaccinated, and they get crook and infect others, are the directors liable? Is health all of a sudden more sacred than say my current driver's license status for example?

alexx

867 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2809929 9-Nov-2021 15:51

cokemaster: It is sickening to see both Trump flags and signs with swastikas at the Wellington rally.

Some folks need to read some history and see what the real nazis did. And what does Trump have to do with this?

What did you expect to see?

Just to a look at the US over the last few years and leading up to the Jan 6th insurrection in Washington. Marching for "Freedom" against Covid restrictions is just the latest thing the far right have latched onto.

When you see signs with the phrase "media treason" you don't really need a code book to decode that message.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/11/chilling-threats-as-protest-speaker-labels-media-terrorists-encourages-crowd-to-roll-parliament.html

#include <standard.disclaimer>

KrazyKid

1238 posts

Uber Geek

#2809930 9-Nov-2021 15:52

100% Guarantee there will be legal challenges - already have been in NZ by at least one border worker (failed) and plenty of challenges in in Aussie re there mandates to date.
Some teachers and mid-wives are waiting on the results of a judicial review right now.

Nice thing about be a government is if the courts rule against you, you can change the laws.
Unless the plaintiffs get public opinion on their side I suspect they are whistling into the wind.

MileHighKiwi

782 posts

Ultimate Geek

ID Verified

Lifetime subscriber

#2809931 9-Nov-2021 16:04

Why ban a teacher or nurse from working for not being vaccinated when there are alternatives and we really need them to do their job? Make them pass a test every morning before work, hundreds of companies are doing this around the world. Sir Ian Taylor said he had to produce a negative test before business meetings in the USA last week. Every teacher has to self test at home and log their result on an app, with severe penalties for non compliance. Some tests return a result in 15 minutes. Yeah yeah, we can't trust everyone. People are already trying to work around the vaccine passport, its human nature.

wellygary

8315 posts

Uber Geek

#2809932 9-Nov-2021 16:07

sen8or:

This raises a few points -

(our business is not one that is directly mandated)

But it is directly mandated, ..

The wording in the order does not say "teachers"- it says "workers"- including volunteers, who will be on site at a time when children are also present.. it is deliberately a wide net and will catch even people like sparkies fixing a light bulb...

Part 9: Groups in relation to affected education services

9.1 Workers over the age of 12 years who carry out work at or for an affected education service (including as a volunteer or an unpaid worker) and who—
(a) may have contact with children or students in the course of carrying out that work; or
(b) will be present at the affected education service at a time when children or students are also present

It catches parents who help out at school , or go on camps or school trips, and probably those turning up at assemblies or school performances - but the "when students are present" means at our school it excludes parent- teacher meetings etc..

mudguard

2114 posts

Uber Geek

#2809934 9-Nov-2021 16:08

MileHighKiwi:

Why ban a teacher or nurse from working for not being vaccinated when there are alternatives and we really need them to do their job?

Because they're around the most vulnerable and are state employees generally. Is it really practical to test someone every day or every other day?

wellygary

8315 posts

Uber Geek

#2809936 9-Nov-2021 16:12

alexx:

cokemaster: It is sickening to see both Trump flags and signs with swastikas at the Wellington rally.

Some folks need to read some history and see what the real nazis did. And what does Trump have to do with this?

What did you expect to see?

Apparently there were even "let's go brandon" placards- indicating how disparate a group it was...

Handle9

11386 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2809937 9-Nov-2021 16:13

MileHighKiwi:

Why ban a teacher or nurse from working for not being vaccinated when there are alternatives and we really need them to do their job? Make them pass a test every morning before work, hundreds of companies are doing this around the world. Sir Ian Taylor said he had to produce a negative test before business meetings in the USA last week. Every teacher has to self test at home and log their result on an app, with severe penalties for non compliance. Some tests return a result in 15 minutes. Yeah yeah, we can't trust everyone. People are already trying to work around the vaccine passport, its human nature.

Because daily testing is expensive and doesn't achieve the aim of vaccine mandates.

For all the shouty Smurfs very very few won't actually get vaccinated. In New York about 4% of teachers didn't get vaccinated by the mandated date.

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